Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

[roos]

Hi,

I have a Indmar Assault 5.7, same as mercruiser 5.7 basically.
The engine is from 2002, if that would matter.

Last night me and a buddy of mine went out wakeboarding. After about an hour or so of running I was going to pull him out of the water when the motor suddenly died. I gave full power, the engine responded, then quickly lost power and died. Like it was out of gas or something. Though it wasn't.
This might or might not be related to the "actual" problem but I put it out there just in case. And this is the first time my engine has ever failed me except for when I have run it empty on gas.

When I tried to start the engine the starter made a horrible grindning noise together with a terrifying clunking noise. I quickly stopped turning the engine over and we caught a lift in to the dock.
At the dock I decided to give the starter an other try. It did turn the engine over, it made the same terrible noise, even though I quickly stopped running the starter the engine almost came to life and sounded like it fired once or twice and the engine definitely turned over. Once the starter was disengaged and the engine was turning the noise was gone and the engine purred like a cat (as always) if even for half a second.

My own conclusion is that something is messed up with the starter or the flywheel making it sound horrible. Maybe the starter is missing a tooth? However the engine seemed to turn over as usual and therefore it doesn't seem like it has broken terribly inside...

Don't know if this can be related to the engine choking... Maybe it was just a coincidence...

Best Regards,
Mike

 

[tpenfield]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

Welcome to iBoats . . .

Probably the starter. You could take it out to see what it looks like.

my thoughts are that it may have engaged suddenly while the engine was running causing the engine to die and trashing the starter.

 

[roos]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

Welcome to iBoats . . .

Probably the starter. You could take it out to see what it looks like.

my thoughts are that it may have engaged suddenly while the engine was running causing the engine to die and trashing the starter.

Hi, thank you!

What would cause the starter to engage?

I like the theory. It explains why the engine died and most of all starters are cheap and I am perfectly fit to change one myself... =)
I didn't have the tools necessary as my tool-box only contained a wrench (adjustable, don't know the name).
Plus, I was already in a hurry as the experience all together already lengthened my stay on the water. Will remove the starter as soon as I get back to the boat.

 

[roos]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

Went down to the boat yesterday and found 3 pieces of a spring lying by the starter engine / flywheel.
My guess is that these pieces of spring got in the way of the starter engine causing the noise, thus the engine sounded ok when the starter engine was not engaged.

I have identified this spring as one of the dampner plate springs. Though this is more of a qualified guess then a sure thing.

I have a Supra Launch SSV from 2002 by the way...
So it is a V-drive.

My question now.... Would I be ok to start the engine and run it at idle speed to the nearest ramp (as the boat is in the water). This is approx 6 miles. Or should I get a tow.

Thank you!
Mike

 

[Bondo]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

Went down to the boat yesterday and found 3 pieces of a spring lying by the starter engine / flywheel.
My guess is that these pieces of spring got in the way of the starter engine causing the noise, thus the engine sounded ok when the starter engine was not engaged.

I have identified this spring as one of the dampner plate springs. Though this is more of a qualified guess then a sure thing.

I have a Supra Launch SSV from 2002 by the way...
So it is a V-drive.

My question now.... Would I be ok to start the engine and run it at idle speed to the nearest ramp (as the boat is in the water). This is approx 6 miles. Or should I get a tow.

Thank you!
Mike

Ayuh,.... You can roll the dice, or tow it,.... That's Yer call to make,...

None of Us can predict the future,....

 

[roos]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

Ayuh,.... You can roll the dice, or tow it,.... That's Yer call to make,...

None of Us can predict the future,....

Haha.. Well, I was hoping someone could say either "worst case you damage the dampner plate more" or "don't do it".
But then I guess I'll just tow it. Rolling the dice seems bad if something breaks.

Thanks!

 

[Walt T]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

Worst case scenario is water was ingested and the starter was damaged trying to start it. That would explain why it died on you earlier. I am familiar with that 'clunk' when a piston hits that water. It would turn over later because the water either went out an open valve or eventually drained past the rings. Remove the spark plugs, try cranking it and observe what comes out of the cylinders. Free and easy check. Kinda like a girlfriend I had back in the day when I still had hair and abs.

 

[roos]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

Worst case scenario is water was ingested and the starter was damaged trying to start it. That would explain why it died on you earlier. I am familiar with that 'clunk' when a piston hits that water. It would turn over later because the water either went out an open valve or eventually drained past the rings. Remove the spark plugs, try cranking it and observe what comes out of the cylinders. Free and easy check. Kinda like a girlfriend I had back in the day when I still had hair and abs.

Well, my best guess is that the spring got loose for whatever reason. Fell down and landed down by the starter engine in the bell housing. Then it got caught between the bell housing and the flywheel. This resulted in 2 things. 1) Engine died. 2) Spring got chopped up into (at least) 3 parts.

Also, to me, it seems so unbelievable that water would all of a sudden get ingested when the motor is on and running maybe 2500 RPM. Although I am not an expert by any means.
Okey if I had just came off the throttle and the sudden deceleration of the boat caused the water in the risers/exhaust to come rushing forward. But now I just hit the accelerator and the boat should rather be pouring the water down the exhaust better then usual?
BTW my risers and manifolds are new for the season.. have worked fine the 20-30 days I have used the boat.

At least the engine oil is black as used oil should be.

But yeah... I will check for water just to be safe when I am getting the boat out of the water.

Thanks!

 

[Walt T]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

Sudden deceleration can bring in water if the flappers are not working right and remember the bite the props have on the water, the engine can actually be turned in reverse sucking water in big time. (Just saying that, obviously that didn't happen) If you have a crack in your exhaust manifold keep in mind how cam overlap works, a brief time when both the intake and exhaust valve are open and the piston is moving down pulling air in. This is done to assist purging of exhaust gases from the cylinder but water can and will get in if it is present. The first symptom is missing at idle and then dying. May restart okay or may get that "Clunk" if the exhaust valve on the cracked exhaust port just happens to be open. Then water will dribble in. Checking oil may not tell you much if the water is at the very bottom. Usually you'll get the milky oil or you'll notice a very small amount of the milky look on the stick. Anyway, that's how it happens. Not saying that is what's wrong, just suggesting you check. I've seen starters damaged and ring gear teeth damaged when the engine turns a half revolution and hits that water. Then centrifugal force takes over, rods get bent and the starter gear tries to keep going while you have the key on and are holding it. Seen it many times. Doesn't sound that bad of course on yours I'm just trying to make you worry about it all day at work so you haul buns home against rush hour traffic using all new combinations of swear words and using your pinkie finger instead of the middle one because they all ain't good enough for the middle one and then yanking off the cover in a snowstorm like here in CO and taking plugs out.

 

[Maclin]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

I think I will add to the paranoia-inducement started by Walt T...

The first thought I had when reading your description of the incident was that some water came back up the chute so to speak, like when the human body coughs then immediatley hiccups. And some could have entered a cylinder and the engine really really did not want to turn over. The springs you saw may have been "ejected" as a result of that and not the other way around.

If it ended up purring like a kitten then sounds like, if it was water in the cylinder, that it was a small amount and it dissipated somehow by one of the methods Walt T described, and could turn over later. In this condition, had it been enough water to be hydro-LOCKED and the starter and gears had enough chutzpa to keep going then something like a connectiong rod would have had to give way.

Removing all spark plugs and turning it over and observing is certainly due diligence for your peace of mind. That is if you have any left after these last 2 posts :faint2:

 

[Walt T]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

New risers and manifolds... I wonder what riser gaskets were used.

 

[roos]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

New risers and manifolds... I wonder what riser gaskets were used.

Gaskets are indmar original. They are still green in color, but hopefully they are better than some of the other brands? Wouldn't mind changing them if they are deemed inferior quality. But my Indmar has the Indmar-risers and I figured indmar gaskets should be alright?

Okey.. Don't live where my boat sits so couldn't rush through traffic friday afternoon to get a look at it, but went there yesterday. I removed all the plugs, didn't pour out any fluid. Sprayed the plug holes with some fogging oil. I but a screwdriver in the fly-wheel teeth and managed to turn the engine by hand. Turned it a full revolution, at least, and didn't see any damaged teeth or anything. Replaced the spark-plugs and the starter engine and decided to crank the engine.
It cranked fine. No bad noises, seemed to crank over with "normal" power.
Though, the engine didn't start. I know I have fuel in the tank, but added an extra gallon to be extra sure, the fuel pump is at least buzzing, but no start.

I noticed the tachometer didn't show any sign of life when cranking. I checked all fuses I could possibly find and pulled + re-plugged a few wires that seemed suspect of being involved in the ignition system to maybe free up some corrosion though this seemed far fetched.

I removed a random spark-plug and let a helping hand try to start the engine to check for spark. There was a spark. (I have then later come to realize that I should have checked for intensity of the spark and that I should have grounded the plug to some bare metal to check for sure). The spark was yellow, though I am not sure the spark plug body actually touched any metal. Probably not. There was however no snap sound or white/blue spark. I am by no means an expert at this so maybe I am wrong but should the plug wire have enough power to actually produce a spark if it is held close to some bare metal on the block? Cause it didn't...

I replaced the spark and tested some more. Sometimes the tachometer came to life and displayed at least a few RPM's, but it wasn't consistent.

My new theory is that something is wrong with the ignition. This keeps the engine from starting now. This stopped the engine rather abruptly last Sunday and the sudden stop made the spring dislodge. The clunking noise was at least the pieces of spring caught between starter-engine/flywheel/bell housing.
The sound when the engine died reminded me of the engine running out of fuel, but was quicker. It died almost instantly, but without any mechanical noise. Nothing stopping it physically.

The engine is a 2002 Indmar Marine Assault TBI (Throttle Body Injection). Since I have a hard time attaining spare parts on short notice. (I usually have everything shipped from the US, takes 6-10 days). I would love to know what I can check without getting any new parts. How to troubleshoot this problem. Also since I don't keep the boat at my house I would love to have a few suspect things to look for so I can check several items at the same time.

Greatly appreciate your help!

Mike

 

[Bondo]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

Gaskets are indmar original. They are still green in color, but hopefully they are better than some of the other brands? Wouldn't mind changing them if they are deemed inferior quality. But my Indmar has the Indmar-risers and I figured indmar gaskets should be alright?

Okey.. Don't live where my boat sits so couldn't rush through traffic friday afternoon to get a look at it, but went there yesterday. I removed all the plugs, didn't pour out any fluid. Sprayed the plug holes with some fogging oil. I but a screwdriver in the fly-wheel teeth and managed to turn the engine by hand. Turned it a full revolution, at least, and didn't see any damaged teeth or anything. Replaced the spark-plugs and the starter engine and decided to crank the engine.
It cranked fine. No bad noises, seemed to crank over with "normal" power.
Though, the engine didn't start. I know I have fuel in the tank, but added an extra gallon to be extra sure, the fuel pump is at least buzzing, but no start.

I noticed the tachometer didn't show any sign of life when cranking. I checked all fuses I could possibly find and pulled + re-plugged a few wires that seemed suspect of being involved in the ignition system to maybe free up some corrosion though this seemed far fetched.

I removed a random spark-plug and let a helping hand try to start the engine to check for spark. There was a spark. (I have then later come to realize that I should have checked for intensity of the spark and that I should have grounded the plug to some bare metal to check for sure). The spark was yellow, though I am not sure the spark plug body actually touched any metal. Probably not. There was however no snap sound or white/blue spark. I am by no means an expert at this so maybe I am wrong but should the plug wire have enough power to actually produce a spark if it is held close to some bare metal on the block? Cause it didn't...

I replaced the spark and tested some more. Sometimes the tachometer came to life and displayed at least a few RPM's, but it wasn't consistent.

My new theory is that something is wrong with the ignition. This keeps the engine from starting now. This stopped the engine rather abruptly last Sunday and the sudden stop made the spring dislodge. The clunking noise was at least the pieces of spring caught between starter-engine/flywheel/bell housing.
The sound when the engine died reminded me of the engine running out of fuel, but was quicker. It died almost instantly, but without any mechanical noise. Nothing stopping it physically.

The engine is a 2002 Indmar Marine Assault TBI (Throttle Body Injection). Since I have a hard time attaining spare parts on short notice. (I usually have everything shipped from the US, takes 6-10 days). I would love to know what I can check without getting any new parts. How to troubleshoot this problem. Also since I don't keep the boat at my house I would love to have a few suspect things to look for so I can check several items at the same time.

Greatly appreciate your help!

Mike

Ayuh,.... Sounds like it's sparkin', But,....

Disconnect the tach wire from the coil's (-) terminal, usually grey, then try it....
If the tach is dyin', it may have grounded out the ignition, killin' the motor,...

Is the Efi sprayin' fuel when ya crank it over,..??
If not,... Ya might try spillin' abit of gas down the throat of the Efi, 'n try it,....

 

[roos]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

Ayuh,.... Sounds like it's sparkin', But,....

Disconnect the tach wire from the coil's (-) terminal, usually grey, then try it....
If the tach is dyin', it may have grounded out the ignition, killin' the motor,...

Is the Efi sprayin' fuel when ya crank it over,..??
If not,... Ya might try spillin' abit of gas down the throat of the Efi, 'n try it,....

The efi is dripping not spraying fuel. Spilled some gas down the carb and it started right up!
So... What now?
How do I test what could be wrong? Fuel pump, lines, map sensor, other sensor? Ecu? Injector? There are two of them so both shouldn't have failed...

Thanks!

 

[roos]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

The efi is dripping not spraying fuel. Spilled some gas down the carb and it started right up!
So... What now?
How do I test what could be wrong? Fuel pump, lines, map sensor, other sensor? Ecu? Injector? There are two of them so both shouldn't have failed...

Thanks!

Tested some things according to several other posts I found on here.
Removed fuel/water separator filter. Full of gas. Poured the gas into another container and replaced the filter. When I put key in run position I could hear the pump buzz just as it normally does and fuel spray into filter. After three times of letting the pump prime the filter was full again. Pump seem nice and strong?

I have 12v on the pink/red wires leading to the injectors when key is in on position. Pulsating at about 8-9 volt while cranking.

I have 12 v at tower of ignition coil with key in run position. About 10v while cranking.
Battery drops to about 10-11 v while cranking as well. Though I have three batteries and tried with all of them connected to no avail.

Don't know how to test ignition coil since it has pin connections for all connections but the tower. GM delco style I think.

Removing tach wire didn't help.

I've read about issues with the ignition causing issues with fuel injection as well?
Spark is yellow even with spark plug grounded to a good ground and connected directly to ignition coil.

Thank you!
Mike

 

[Walt T]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

Obviously you have a fuel delivery problem. You dribbled gas in the TBI and it started. You have a spark, stop fooling with it for now. While cranking the engine look in the TBI and see if you see fuel getting sprayed in. If not, check fuel pressure or check it first. Free and easy tests. Go from there.

Oh and I'm glad your engine apparently doesn't have water ingestion issues. The Indmar gaskets should be fine. I still don't know what that "Clunk" was but we shall see.

 

[roos]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

Obviously you have a fuel delivery problem. You dribbled gas in the TBI and it started. You have a spark, stop fooling with it for now. While cranking the engine look in the TBI and see if you see fuel getting sprayed in. If not, check fuel pressure or check it first. Free and easy tests. Go from there.

Oh and I'm glad your engine apparently doesn't have water ingestion issues. The Indmar gaskets should be fine. I still don't know what that "Clunk" was but we shall see.

The clunk, don't know if clunk is the appropriate word to describe it, was pieces of the spring lying by the starter engine gear. When the gear spun it hit a piece of spring which made a noise. Since I removed the pieces of spring the noise is gone, so I think we can disregard the clunk noise.

You were absolutely correct that something caused the engine to stop and that caused the spring to pop loose.

I have checked and they do not spray fuel when I am cranking. I tried advancing the throttle about half-way and even then, no spray while cranking. They do however drip fuel. But it is a very occasional drip. And knowing my fuel-economy that can't be nearly enough to do anything... =)

How do I check fuel pressure? Where? =)
Guess I need some kind of tool...Can I just go get any fuel pressure tester or are there anything to think of in this situation?

What would cause sudden drop of fuel pressure? I mean to the point that it was working perfectly one second and completely stopped the next?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[roos]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

Obviously you have a fuel delivery problem. You dribbled gas in the TBI and it started. You have a spark, stop fooling with it for now. While cranking the engine look in the TBI and see if you see fuel getting sprayed in. If not, check fuel pressure or check it first. Free and easy tests. Go from there.

Oh and I'm glad your engine apparently doesn't have water ingestion issues. The Indmar gaskets should be fine. I still don't know what that "Clunk" was but we shall see.

I have what I think is good fuel pressure. Also, I have no injection pulse (maybe 0.02 V)..
I was going to check my ignition module, found some instructions online. It said that it should be hot when ignition is on / key in run position? I have 0.15 V on the "hottest" of the 4 wires.
Have one of these ignition modules: https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...vcphXrfWGwnShrphHxRwLM_HulPumYYImO9Nh41jIKtuM

The right hand connector has 4 wires going to it. One is black, which seems to be ground as it has 0 resistance to ground. One is purple, which I think means ignition wire, it has 0.15 V with ignition on. The others I don't know? They have about 0.08 V (though I don't trust my voltmeter with those details).
Seems like I am not getting power to my ignition module? No power to ECM either maybe?

Any ideas would be very welcome.

Thanks!

Mike

 

[Grub54891]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

My omly question is,how did the spring parts get out of the housing? Is the plate missing on the bell? Or did the jusy come out through the drive yolk area?
Grub

 

[Walt T]

Re: Mechanical Clunking noise when running starter engine

"If ya can't fix it with a hammer,ya got yourself an electrical problem."

LOL good one!