replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

ethan169

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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

The plate you're referring to is called a bearing separating plate (looks like this 3'' Chromium Molybdenum Steel Bearing Separator). I slip that between the gear and the bearing, and tighten up the nuts slightly, just enough to move the bearing away from the gear a hair. And yes, it will be tight. Then start the set-up procedure. And yes, I'd already done that before the video was started.

Yes thats exactly what I have!

I just want to clarify. There are two bearings and the separator plate will be between the drive gear and the bearing closest to it (of course). However i will be applying pressure (via) the press on the drive gear stub which would be the end opposite of the actual gear surface. So the gear will be facing the floor on the press and ill be pressing the shaft down effectively moving both bearings back a tad on the gear shaft? I just want to make sure I fully understand. Sorry for asking for the brutal detail here.

Did you use a hydraulic press? Or was a mechanical press enough? I just dont want to damage anything. The hydraulic press I have is fairly heavy duty.
 

mercs4mark

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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

Don't use a press at all just tighten the nuts on the separater to move the bearing a hair
 

ethan169

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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

Don't use a press at all just tighten the nuts on the separater to move the bearing a hair

Doh! My bad. I re read Chris post after reading yours. Makes perfect sense. I'll give this a go this evening and check back with my results.
 

Levithan

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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

Everyone has to start somewhere. If I pay them to do it I wont know how to do it next time. Why not learn on an old drive like this one? Worst case scenario I gets completely destroyed. I can then buy a used complete drive off of craigs list for anywhere from $200-$800 and be back where I started. It would suck but its unlikely if I take my time and ask questions and understand what im doing.
I agree with the everyone has to start somewhere but a drive unit is not the best starting place.
A tune up is starting somewhere.
Your logic doesn't really make sense about not wanting to spend the extra 235 to make sure the drive is good/sealed and has warranty against leakage but to rather possibly destroy it and pay 400-800 on another used drive?
Just doesn't make sense, good luck though, hope it works out for you.
 

achris

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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

I agree with the everyone has to start somewhere but a drive unit is not the best starting place.
A tune up is starting somewhere.
Your logic doesn't really make sense about not wanting to spend the extra 235 to make sure the drive is good/sealed and has warranty against leakage but to rather possibly destroy it and pay 400-800 on another used drive?
Just doesn't make sense, good luck though, hope it works out for you.

If you haven't got something positive to add to the thread, please stay out of it. The guy is obviously going ahead and doing the job himself, and I fully support him in that. You, on the other hand, have been nothing but negative and in other posts on this forum, offering completely incorrect and (in some cases) dangerous advise.

Should your behaviour continue in this manner I will report you (again)....

Chris.......
 

ethan169

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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

Everyone has to start somewhere. If I pay them to do it I wont know how to do it next time. Why not learn on an old drive like this one? Worst case scenario I gets completely destroyed. I can then buy a used complete drive off of craigs list for anywhere from $200-$800 and be back where I started. It would suck but its unlikely if I take my time and ask questions and understand what im doing.
I agree with the everyone has to start somewhere but a drive unit is not the best starting place.
A tune up is starting somewhere.
Your logic doesn't really make sense about not wanting to spend the extra 235 to make sure the drive is good/sealed and has warranty against leakage but to rather possibly destroy it and pay 400-800 on another used drive?
Just doesn't make sense, good luck though, hope it works out for you.

When I said everyone has to start somewhere i didnt mean with mechanics or boats in general. I meant with this specific drive. As I mentioned I like to learn and I learn by doing. I am no newbie to engines especially when it comes to automotive engines. And even MORE so when its a small block chevy. However this is the first outdrive Ive had the pleasure of getting my hands on. So I am asking questions and taking my time to LEARN how to do the service myself. It also helps with trouble shooting things when theres an issue. Previously I had no idea what the drive consisted of internally. Im beginning to change that as we speak. Now if im out on the water and I hear something I have more knowledge to make an educated guess as to what the issue is. Not just say "ummm i gotta tow this hooptie back to the marina and pay those dudes to fix this..." Thanks for your concern though. As I mentioned worst case scenario is I completely fail and destroy everything associated with this drive. Its an expensive unit, yes. But i doubt it will come to that as long as I take the time to learn. This stuff isnt rocket science. It just takes some knowledge and know how.

Now Im still waiting on the spanner wrench to arrive. I should be able to get it tomorrow morning. I have pulled the bearings back a little from the drive gear. I put a feeler gauge in the gap and its 0.014" on one side and there's a small section where I have to step down to the 0.013" gauge. After pulling the whole bearing package back from the drive gear by about 0.013" the resistance on the bearings seems the same. This kind of makes sense to me as Im pushing both bearings back on the drive gear shaft together. But from what a few people are telling me it should lessen the resistance on the bearings right?

Regarding the torque on the lock nut here I'm getting mixed information. The manual doesn't mention a special torque for used bearings. The section on pre-loading the drive gear and bearings says 6-10 lb. in. Later on when checking the driven gear pre-load with an old drive shaft it gives both specs 6-10lb.in. for new bearings and 2.5-4lb.in for used bearings. I am more inclined to go by the manual and set it 8lb. in. right?

One more question. Ive removed all three of the oil seals. Ive installed the u joint yoke oil seal into the carrier. As for the upper and lower seals (the two smaller ones) the manual mentions to apply loctite 27131 or "type A" to the OD of those two oil seals. Im not sure what type A is. But I have loctite 27121 which is high strength threadlocker. the old oil seals didnt show signs of loctite. Does anybody else use loctite on these? If so what kind? The quicksilver stuff?

EDIT: I looked up the difference between the 27121 and 27131 one is a 10ml bottle and the other is a 50ml bottle. Im not sure why they didnt just put down loctite 271 which indicates the type and doesn't include container. Im still curious to hear from you guys if you use the loctite or not.
 

achris

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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

This kind of makes sense to me as Im pushing both bearings back on the drive gear shaft together. But from what a few people are telling me it should lessen the resistance on the bearings right?

You are correct, you are pushing back both bearings. But the pre-load will have (should have) decreased. If it hasn't, or you feel it hasn't, just use the bearing separator and push the bearings apart. You can even start with the bearing closest to the gear, hard up against it. The act of putting the nut on will bring them closer and start increasing the loaded (as we want)...

ethan169 said:
Regarding the torque on the lock nut here I'm getting mixed information. The manual doesn't mention a special torque for used bearings. The section on pre-loading the drive gear and bearings says 6-10 lb. in. Later on when checking the driven gear pre-load with an old drive shaft it gives both specs 6-10lb.in. for new bearings and 2.5-4lb.in for used bearings. I am more inclined to go by the manual and set it 8lb. in. right?

Right.

ethan169 said:
One more question. Ive removed all three of the oil seals. Ive installed the u joint yoke oil seal into the carrier. As for the upper and lower seals (the two smaller ones) the manual mentions to apply loctite 27131 or "type A" to the OD of those two oil seals. Im not sure what type A is. But I have loctite 27121 which is high strength threadlocker. the old oil seals didnt show signs of loctite. Does anybody else use loctite on these? If so what kind? The quicksilver stuff?

I use Loctite Master gasket sealant on seal outer rings. It's the stuff they seal outboard crankcases together with...

With the seal on the yoke, did you check the seal surface for a groove? If there is a groove, you have 4 options.
1. Replace the yoke.
2. Have the seal surface 'reclaimed' and re-machined. I think it's called 'spraying'.
3. Speedi-sleeve the yoke.
4. (my favourite) Set the seal about 20 thou deeper in the carrier and have the seal ride on (effectively) a new surface...


ethan169 said:
EDIT: I looked up the difference between the 27121 and 27131 one is a 10ml bottle and the other is a 50ml bottle. Im not sure why they didnt just put down loctite 271 which indicates the type and doesn't include container. Im still curious to hear from you guys if you use the loctite or not.

Cheers,

Chris.......
 

ethan169

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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

The link works Bt Doctor. Thank you. The image is a little clearer in that manual..

Here is a picture of my u joint yoke. I cant see any real groove. My finger nail doesn't really catch on anything.


Also the new seal I have seems to be the double lip seal (I think) that boat doctor was talking about. It is a sierra re seal kit. Heres a picture of the old one vs the new one pressed into the carrier.

OLD


NEW


by the way it looks like my lower seal was completely gone. So i have a feeling that is where my oil was leaking from. Could it make it into the drive shaft bellows from leaking down though? The new u joint seal doesn't seem to be a whole lot tighter then the old one It is better though and they both conform to the seal riding surface.
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

Clean the yoke up with some FINE 'wet'n'dry' (I use 1200 grit)... It needs to be clean and smooth. The missing lower seal in the bottom of the housing will only allow water into the spline area (NOT a good thing)... And even if both of those seals were leaking, no way the oil would end up in the bellows. The ONLY way oil from the drive can get in the bellows is through the front...

Chris........
 

ethan169

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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

. If it hasn't, or you feel it hasn't, just use the bearing separator and push the bearings apart. You can even start with the bearing closest to the gear, hard up against it.

When you say push the bearings apart you mean place the bearing separator in between the two bearings?

What I have done up until now is place the bearing separator between the drive gear and the bearing closest to it. I could do this more but i feel like it wont loosen the preload between the two bearings. If i separate the two bearings from each other a little I would expect the preload to decrease. Am I thinking of this incorrectly?

If you refer to the picture below I was placing the separator where the red arrow is pointing. However you now suggesting I place it where the yellow area is pointing correct?
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

All correct...

One more thing... As you re-assemble, fill the space between the 2 lips in that new seal with grease. It'll help prevent the lip on the outside from burning...

Chris.......
EDIT: Just been re-reading your posts... Drive gear pre-load. You're right, they don't distinguish between new and used (oddly) and only specify 6-10 lb.in. Go ahead and set it at 8... Good call....
 

mercs4mark

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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

All correct...

One more thing... As you re-assemble, fill the space between the 2 lips in that new seal with grease. It'll help prevent the lip on the outside from burning...

Chris.......
EDIT: Just been re-reading your posts... Drive gear pre-load. You're right, they don't distinguish between new and used (oddly) and only specify 6-10 lb.in. Go ahead and set it at 8... Good call....

Chris why not 2.5-4 for used bearings?
 

achris

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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

Chris why not 2.5-4 for used bearings?

I almost got caught on that too... 2.5-4 for used bearings is for the driven gear pre-load, not the drive gear pre-load...

EDIT: Interestingly I checked the manual and specification for the Alpha One Gen II, which runs exactly the same bearing pack and uses the same set-up procedure, and that manual DOES call out a different pre-load for used bearings. 3-7.5 lb.in....
confused0024.gif
 

ethan169

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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

EDIT: Interestingly I checked the manual and specification for the Alpha One Gen II, which runs exactly the same bearing pack and uses the same set-up procedure, and that manual DOES call out a different pre-load for used bearings. 3-7.5 lb.in....
confused0024.gif

I saw that too from the link that Bt Doctor posted to the Gen II manual. Thats kind of why I started questioning it. Also the reason for me picking a value somewhat in between the high and low limits. I did notice that in your video chris you set the preload for the DRIVE gear at 5.25 in lbs or so.

Im going to attempt to separate the bearings a little more so I can at least get the spacer inbetween the two cups slightly loose and then try setting the preload with the rolling torque method at lunch time EST anyway...
 

ethan169

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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

Ok, I was able to release the preload between the two bearings which loosened everything up like I wanted. However The space ring got oblonged a bit by the bearing separator. I was attempting to pull the bearing further back from the gear back on the shaft a tiny but and the bearing seperator didnt have enough bit told hold on the press. So i tightened slightly little by little and it pushed the space out a little. I then released the preload with the press. They were on there pretty good.

This is what it looks like now...



Beleive me when I say I went very slowly and was trying to be as carefull as I could.. Can I attempt to bring the spacer back to round? Can I replace just the spacer? I see I boats sells a new bearing back form sierra for $100 that comes with both bearings and cups and spacer. Can I pick up an old drive and grab the spacer? Will I have to use additional shims?

Thanks again for the help
 

ethan169

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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

In the manual it says to use the original bearing spacer. So it looks like my options are try to fix this spacer or buy a new bearing kit...


EDIT: I just went ahead and ordered new bearings. They seemed ok i guess but they are old. So for $100 I guess Ill have a fairly tight upper unit. New parts will be here tomorrow. Ill press off the old ones tonight and when the new ones come in tomorrow Ill press on the new ones and set the preload hopefully with out issue. Ill keep this thread updated incase I have any more questions or issues for those who are following along.
 

achris

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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

You are going to have to check the clearance on the gear if you replace the bearing. Need a special tool for that. It would be prferable to get the old one back to round, unless the bearings need replacing.

Chris..........
 

ethan169

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Re: replacing oil seal in alpha one gen one upper driveshaft housing

Well it seems like the shims are between the drive gear coming through the opening and they rest on the first bearing. So the gear should sit in the same location as it did before even with new bearings. If I changes the gears I can see where I would need to check the gear clearance. Im re reading the manual. Ive already placed the order, I suppose I could return the bearings if i didnt use them but how could I go about getting the old space back to round?
 
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