HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

[alilley]

Ok so back on the weekend before the 4th of July the engine (181 ci/140 HP) got really sick. All of a sudden lost 1000 rpm, 10 psi oil pressure, started knocking, banging, then squeaking. So I went on hunt for a replacement. Found one, guy claimed it to be a reman engine with let then20 min run time. It was sitting the boat but, off to one side not hooked up. Engine it self was complete minus starter. I bought it with out doing compression check. Engine was covered up wile in boat, boat was backed into a garage so on rain got on it. It sat like this prob about 2 years till I purchased it. . . . . So that the background on it. We swapped my starter, manifold, carb,and wiring harness over to replacement engine....... installed in boat....... no fire off..... check spark, nice and blue, check fuel,. . .fuel squirts in carb when move linkage ( this is the carb that was on and working when old doing went down) still on fire.... oil pressure is 50 psi on a mechanical gauge when turning over by starter..... run compression check . . 75. .65....55...75 . . Go through value adjustment per book..... lost compression.... broug1 back to top dead centre. Loosened all rocker up till they would early move up and down, then turned back down to where there no play ( dad called it zero lash) run compressing check again...... 95 . . 85...80 .....95. . . . Still will not fire. Dad is turning distributor and working carb by hand as I am on key. We are noticing what we think is blow by coming up through the head, where the oil returns back to the engine at. You can hear it trying to fire on maybe 2 cylinders. We have gotten it to sound like a motor that has been flooded out trying to fire but it just wont kick off. . .
I forgot to mention..... when we swapped the manifold over I noticed that the ports for the exhaust values were clean, the spark plugs were clean and white prior to us trying to start it. They, being the plugs, now have black on them. We do not think this engine had been started before we got it


Any ideas what it could be? Stuck rings? Cam out of time? Any help or suggestions will be greatly appreciated as we would like to get it started before putting it up for the winter.

 

[Bondo]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

Ayuh,... With those compression numbers, I think ya bought a core motor, 'n Not a rebuilt motor...

 

[alilley]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

I would agree if show any sign of wear I.e. low oil psi, spark plugs that was full of carbon, or even carbon in the exhaust port.... even the manifold gasket was clean. When I say clean I mean look like New or had came from a machine shop, nothing wiped out with a damp rag.

 

[lexer440]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

You have spark and fuel and compression (ish), I would double check timing completely including firing order. I have met some engines that had distributor installed 180deg out.

 

[Don S]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

Pull the coil wire out of the center of the cap, hold the end of the wire about a half inch from a nice clean ground (Un-painted) and crank the engine over. Do you have a bright blue spark snapping across the gap? If it's yellow, you may need some new points.
The battery is fully charged isn't it, and the engine cranking over at normal cranking rpm? Real slow cranking on low compression will never work.

 

[Fleetwin]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

DonS is correct. You need a very crisp blue spark.

Even with loads of Blow By, it should still run. Don't ask me how I know.

Your valve lash may still be a bit off. Are you sure the lifters were pumped up when you made the adjustments?

I do it this way.

1. Loosen the rockers.

2. Determine which cylinder is on TDC (compression stroke).

3. Rotate the push rod with your fingers as you tighten down the rocker. You should get just a bit of turning resistance on the push rod.

4. Secure rocker.

 

[alilley]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

Battery fully charged ( on trickle charges all week only work on it during weekends as I am away for work). It does turn over at normal speed, till battery starts to go down then we stop. It is showing a bright blue spark at the end of the plug wires and at the plug(grounding bottom of the plug against the head)

I do know that he you turn the distributor to far counter clock wire it changes tones and slows down a bit. I assume I am two far advanced.... start to turn it back the other way it sounds a lot better.

I too have gave had to deal with the 180 issue but then usually back fire through carb and pop out exhaust. This one not doing that. I have checked and re checked the firing order.......


Dad is an older hot rodder and has worked on many motors, have talked to a couple of his rodder friends about this and we are all at a loss here

 

[Don S]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

Well, if it was me, and someone else put the engine together, I would assume they did the valve adjustment wrong, and the distributor was in tall 180 out.
Have seen it often on these forums. The engine has to be at #1 TDC to start adjusting valve and setting the distributor, Too many wrongly assume that when the cam and crankshaft marks are lined up, that they are at #1 TDC on the COMPRESSION Stroke, but you are not.

Here is something I wrote up on a V8, but the principal in step 1 and 2 is the same.

View attachment Adjusting Valves.pdf

 

[Silvertip]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

If you did the valve adjustment as you said you did in your first post, you did it wrong. You cannot adjust ALL valves with cylinder #1 at TDC. You adjust each cylinder with THAT cylinder at TDC. All cylinders are not at TDC at the same time.

 

[lexer440]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

The engine has to be at #1 TDC to start adjusting valve and setting the distributor, Too many wrongly assume that when the cam and crankshaft marks are lined up, that they are at #1 TDC on the COMPRESSION Stroke, but you are not.

+1 on that from Don, and its also the reason for not using the rotor to confirm firing stroke if indeed you did.

 

[alilley]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

When I adjusted the values the first time, I had remote starter button in one hand, thumb over plug hole of number 1, when compression started to build. I then watched the rockers, when the intake went closed i looked it the timing marks and seen that the mark was on the tab. Then adjusted certain values on each cylinder and went 3/4 turn past 0 lash as book said. Then turn crank 1 full turn and adjusted the others....... lost compression on number 1. That why backed all of them off, went to number 1 t d c again and went to 0 lash. Had more compression after that.


Would it be agreed on that I need to go through the value adjustment again? I am thinking about pulling this distributor out and putting the one off of oldengine in it. Since I know that it was working.

 

[Don S]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

Ok, changed that V8 file I posted earlier, here is one for the 4 cylinder engines.

View attachment Adjusting valves on a 4 cylinder GM.pdf

 

[alilley]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

When I get back home ( should be Friday morning) I will start over, and try to use a clear head on it. Will readjust values again and put that other distributor in, since i know it works as it was running when other engine went down

If there is something anyone else can suggest, by all means please do

 

[Bondo]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

When I get back home ( should be Friday morning) I will start over, and try to use a clear head on it. Will readjust values again and put that other distributor in, since i know it works as it was running when other engine went down

If there is something anyone else can suggest, by all means please do

Ayuh,.... When runnin' the valves,....

Loose the remote starter button, 'n Manually turn the motor over....

 

[tinkerguy70]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

After you get the valves adjusted correctly, take a look at the spark plugs while out of the engine.
Stick one in the plug wire and hook the metal shank to a good known ground (jumper wires work nicely for this). Notice the spark when you're cranking the engine over.

I say this because after I bought my boat that had been setting for 2 or 3 years, I fought with the same problems you're having for 2 days before I checked the "new" plugs that the previous owner had installed.
Needless to say, I went through everything mentioned before and when I put a new set of plugs in it, it lit right off about about 2 cranks.
May or may not be your problem, I just thought I'd mention if you're still having problems.
The moral of the story for me was; other peoples definition of "new" and mine are often quite different.

 

[alilley]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

Bondo . . . How would you turn this engine over without the remote start button? There is no way to get on the bolt in the front of the crank to turn it that way cuz the front engine mount is in the way.


Don S. Thanks for the write ups much easier to follow the my book is. Which could be why I messed up the first go around with. It

 

[Don S]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

Without the spark plugs in it, you should be able to turn the engine easily with a wrench on the alternator nut. Belt needs to be tight, but it works.

Did "your book" say Clymer or Seloc on it?

 

[alilley]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

Don, I have to give credit where credit is due. Yes, unfortunately it does say sea lock on it . I do have a mercruiser version downloaded but I could not get to the computer to even print out the section I needed. I have the write up saved in my phone so there are no questions about being able to pull it back up. I and really starting to learn that this book is more useful as a knee pad of step stool.....

 

[Don S]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

You might want to print out some pages from the OEM manual for the ignition system and installing the distributor along with the firing order. You also have to be at #1TDC on the compression stroke to install the distributor and getting the firing order started off the right direction.

 

[tinkerguy70]

Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!.....it will not fire off

I had a Clymer manual for an old 3.9 outboard I had once upon a time. I think it too was more useful as a knee pad or kindling than it was as a repair manual.