Rain flooded 1987 MCM 165 4CYL.

874Winns

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I recently was given a 1987 Four Winns 190 Horizon with a MCM 165 4cyl. It has been covered in a barn it's entire life. UNTIL last winter. It was left outside with the cover ripped. The bilge plug was not removed and it filled to about mid engine with rain water.
I got it home and cleaned out the interior and found it to be in near factory condition.
I drained out 7 quarts out of the oil pan ( 2 of which were water). 5 quarts oil.
I put in 5 quarts of oil in and tried to turn over the engine (using the hamonic balancer bolt holes) but it was siezed.
I pulled the plugs and put a quarter pint of marvel mystery oil in each cylinder and let some for 24 hrs.
I was able to get the motor to turn back and forth in each direction and increasing the revolutions with little effort using a pry bar.
I pulled the starter, the outdrive and the power steering belt.
I pulled the valve cover and found the rockers to be rusted but all move appropriate.
I poured another quart of oil over entire rocker assembly.
MY QUESTION :
What else should I consider before attempting to start this motor that hasn't started in 5 years and had a season of rain water intrusion.
 

gm280

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:welcome: 874Winns to iboats. Nice to have you aboard...

Well reading where the rocker arms and such were covered with rust makes me believe that the cam and lifters and such would be also. So I don't know if starting, or even trying to start, the engine is the best thing. If I were refurbishing this engine, I think I would tear it down and clean all the rust out and reassembly it with new parts for any part that doesn't make spec first. But that is just how I do things. Others will chime in with their ideas and opinions. JMHO!
 

alldodge

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I recently was given a 1987 Four Winns 190 Horizon with a MCM 165 4cyl. It has been covered in a barn it's entire life. UNTIL last winter. It was left outside with the cover ripped. The bilge plug was not removed and it filled to about mid engine with rain water.
I got it home and cleaned out the interior and found it to be in near factory condition.
I drained out 7 quarts out of the oil pan ( 2 of which were water). 5 quarts oil.
I put in 5 quarts of oil in and tried to turn over the engine (using the hamonic balancer bolt holes) but it was siezed.
I pulled the plugs and put a quarter pint of marvel mystery oil in each cylinder and let some for 24 hrs.
I was able to get the motor to turn back and forth in each direction and increasing the revolutions with little effort using a pry bar.
I pulled the starter, the outdrive and the power steering belt.
I pulled the valve cover and found the rockers to be rusted but all move appropriate.
I poured another quart of oil over entire rocker assembly.
MY QUESTION :
What else should I consider before attempting to start this motor that hasn't started in 5 years and had a season of rain water intrusion.

Howdy

Pull the drive, inspect and change the lube. Then pull the engine and rebuild it or buy a long block.
 

stonyloam

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I am in the you have nothing to lose school. Get a new starter, (you will need one anyway) and see if it will spin over with the plugs removed. From there change the points and see if you can get a spark, then some fresh gas and see if it will start. If you can get it to run on muffs, do a compression check. If OK then run it at low RPM for a while to get it up to operating temperature. Check the oil for water after running, and change if necessary. Chances are if your rotor and stator were under water you will have problems there. If it was not run with the water in the crankcase there is a good chance (IMHO) that you will be OK. The fact that it was just "stuck" and not really seized is a good sign. Let us know how it works out. BTW I have the exact same boat and 470 engine.
 

stonyloam

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The more I thought about this, the more I think you are going to be just fine. I will try to take it point by point. First thing, you had about 2 qt of water in the crankcase. I see no problem there because it was not RUN with water in the oil, so no chance of damaged bearings. Since the water leaked in, probably through the dipstick hole it never mixed with the oil, and since the oil is lighter than water it would have floated on top of the water and if it got high enough to touch the crank, it would be exposed to oil not water. As for the other internals (cam, lifters etc.) you need three things for rust, oxygen, water and exposed iron. Your supply of two of those inside of the block is extremely limited, so I do not see any worry there. It is not as if you left the cam and lifters on a table out in the rain. Rocker arms were rusty, yeah probably enough exposure to moist air from the flame arrester tube to cause some surface rust, but than again the only thing you really have to worry about is the bearing surfaces of the arms. Chances are they are just fine. OK the potential big dog, the Pistons were stuck. Yeah the valves on at least a couple of the cylinders were open and you probably got some surface rust there that made it difficult to turn the engine over, but there again you did get it freed up, so chances are it did not see a great deal of actual damage. So that is my reasoning, and besides you probably don't want to put more money into a rebuild than the boat is worth. Of course I could be wrong, good luck and hopefully we can welcome you to the 470 club ;).
 

JoLin

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I am in the you have nothing to lose school.

I side with stonyloam's view, too. See if the old starter will spin it. Do a compression test. If it seems healthy replace the starter and ignition stuff that you'd need to replace anyway if you bought a new block. Rig a remote tank. See if you can get it to run, then take it from there. It'll take some time, but at least you won't scrap the motor prematurely.

My .02
 

874Winns

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Nov 20, 2015
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Thank you all for the much needed boost of confidence ...
UPDATE...
I took out the starter. It was froze up, rusted and downright pathetic. I took it apart piece by piece. Wire wheeled, sanded every part. The brushes were still good. I greased it up and it runs like a champ. I installed it and turned over the motor. I'm thinking things may be salvagable. I will replace points, cap, plugs, ignition wires, install a new impeller, drain and replace the oil before I attempt to start her up. I'm thankful that it had coolant in the closed cooling system.
 

874Winns

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Nov 20, 2015
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Hey AllDodge...
Just curious as to your thoughts about rebuilding... is it more than likely I will eventually need to?
 

Grub54891

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All you can do is get it running, Do a compression test so you know where the engine is at. Then make sure it's running well enough to take it on some short adventures, with another boat following or a buddy that's accessible readily if it breaks down. Near shore only at first. If it's running well, not using oil and it has no leaks, you should be ok. Remember it's a boat, if it breaks down it could get bad rather quickly, a good anchor and plenty of rode is pretty handy.Depending on the area, you may need flares also. Let us know how it goes!
 

stonyloam

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I am going to jump in on the rebuilding question. If you can get it running and have good compression (120+) on ALL FOUR cylinders you should be OK for quite a while as far as the rebuild goes. If one or two cylinders are low, chances are it needs a head gasket, not a rebuild. If your water pump cam seals have not been replaced, they will have to be done sometime down the line (check for coolant leaking out of the weep hole of the engine water pump while the engine is running) and if your voltage regulator goes out you will want to convert to an alternator. Once you get it running you will know a lot more.
 

Mercruiser420

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Ive dealt with something like that before. You may be OK at first but you WILL have failures down the road.

First of all, the fact that it was stuck/seized means that water had reached the cylinders and not only the crankcase and chances are your rings are junk or at least frozen in their grooves (marvel might help that).
All those rust particles are going to reach your crankshaft bearings and camshaft bores and wear them down.
?? Rusted oil pain (inside).
Oil pump may be junk.
Rusted timing chain/gears
And lets not even get into the different types of leaks you could have

Immediate damage may include:

Lifters may fail, bending push rods.
Valves may be frozen in their guides, bending pushrods or themselves and/or damaging pistons.

But again, you might be able to build enough compression to get it started...I'd take the rockers off (dont mix them up) and tap each valve with a soft mallet to make sure theyre moving up and down in their guides. Then just pour some mystery oil down the spark plug holes and keep turning the crank until it feels better.I've seen miracles happen with these engines.
 
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Richmond2000

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Aug 18, 2015
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I would also recommend a mechanical oil pressure gauge and check on it for the first few runnings and expect ALL of the installed gauges to be in accurate OR not working due to water in wiring / sensors ETC

I would also buy 4 to 6 OIL filters + oil
get engine freed and started + change OIL run for 5 MIN change OIL + filter warm up then oil+filter then again after the first trip out
idea being as if there is rust inside the block ETC + watery residue we want to remove it BEFORE it goes through the oil system OR clogs the filter and starvs the engine of OIL

I have seen junk yard DOG engines go through that and live for a long time
 

stonyloam

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I an not sure he had actual water in the cylinders. The engine has sat for 5 years, the last outside, and I suspect it just has some surface rust on the cylinder walls. If it had water sitting in there I doubt that it would have freed up that easily. Yeah, I agree, a great motor when running right and the Horizon 190 is a great boat, a "true 19 footer". I have had my "87" since "91".
 

874Winns

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Nov 20, 2015
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Thank you all for the imput... I think I will prepare for multiple oil and filter changes. The rockers and valve springs have some surface rust... but the top of the head going down around the push rod holes are rust free. I'm thinking of just pulling the rockers and springs and wire wheel them...
 

Grub54891

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Show us a pic of the rockers and the rust. If mild rust maby it can be wiped off or carefully removed without taking them off.
 

stonyloam

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One quick note on the rockers. Unlike a lot of engines the valve lash on a 470 is set by pushrod length (same as a Ford 460). To change the lash you would instal a longer or shorter pushrod (that is why you must keep track of which hole the pushrod comes out of, some of the rods might be different lengths). So when the rockers are reinstalled they are simply torqued down WITH THE VALVE CLOSED, so it is done in a specific sequence. Check out "boatinfo.com" Mercruiser manual # 8 for the correct sequence starting at TDC (both #1 valves closed). Grub has a good point if it is just surface rust, just wipe it down with a oily rag, see if it comes off.
 
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Mercruiser420

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Also take a look at the lifters and the bottom of the pushrods. Water tends to accumulate around the last 2 lifters. The lifter cover is held by 4 bolts.
 

874Winns

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Hey All... I got the engine to fire up and started right away. I rebuilt starter, trim pump, new impeller and housing, changed the oil and filter, fresh fuel and coolant. Points, condenser, Roter and cap, changed fuel filter & spark plugs. I removed each rocker in sequence and wire wheeled them clean. Before putting oil filter on verified there was oil pumping out of filter port. (Incase oil psi sender was fouled) I attached muffs. Started and ran with temperature gauge at around 120 degrees and have water exiting outdrive. AND STEAM...there is also light STEAM and condensation coming out of rocker cover ventilation to carb/flame arrestor. AND NOW there is milky oil (water in oil). I pulled the oil filter thinking that it was going to be filled but only small trace of milky oil. Again, I cranked over the engine and oil came pumping out of filter port....should have had a full filter? What damage have I done. NEXT STEP: compression check and manual oil PSI guage...
 
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