Water in oil and hydrolock need advise

[mr300z87]

So here is my friends story. Friend buys a 1989 Sea Ray Sundancer 250 a few years ago. The boat had been in dry dock for a few years but it is in good condition, engine seems ok and after a brief sea trial he docks it in his back yard to start boating season 2013. He did no maintaince and just started using boat. Second time out blows up drive. Boat out of water new used untested drive salvages end of season. Fast forward to spring 14 I help him do a full service including bellows, pull risers to inspect new merc gaskets all looks good. We then go to change gear oil and find milkshake. New SEI drive and a lot of bad words, he is in the water. First trip out with the family fun day hanging to ticies shoal, boat dies approaching the dock. Next day I find milk shake oil and water in cylinders He has boat pulled and now brought to boat mechanic who says engine needs re build. Friend say ok pays I don't know much for said rebuild and looses all 2014. Needles to say he is now kinda turned off boating. Btw the rebuild included new manifolds, elbows and flappers

Here we are 2015 new boating season boat goes in water we do a couple of short cruises fix a couple minor issues such as PS leak and failed PS pump. July 4th weekend takes family out again to Tices and again just when pulling up to dock engine dies and we find water is cylinder and milkshake oil. So here we are Oct 2015 and today we just installed a used health running complete 5.7L of the same 87 - 95 vintage.

Now that I got you all up to where we are today, my questions are could an engine builder do a complete rebuild on a cracked block and not know it? Someone else suggested an over causing head gasket failure causing the water intrusion on the rebuild, the flappers are still intact and look good as new? If water were to enter through the exhaust it would be in the combustion chamber and cause hydrolock? In my mind that would stall the motor but not really fill up the old pan with oil? How else could water get into oil except cracked block, head or intake manifold?

My project Sea Ray is the same boat a year newer with a 7.4L but mine has 3 in risers between the manifolds and elbows. Friends boat does not, could this be part of the problem? Btw this friend is the one that gave me project Sea Ray which he did not want because he wanted to go boating. Lol I will be doing tear down of the old rebuilt engine as I am concerned that we know the root cause of the water intrusion since we want to feel comfortable that we fixed it and not blow up the latest engine. If anybody has some advice as to what to look for when doing the tear down it will be greatly appreciated. Or if there is anything I am missing on the boat its self. As always any advice is greatly appreciated. Have a great night.

 

[DeepBlue2010]

Assuming that the engine in question is Mercruiser, you can determine if your friend's boat needs risers or not by following the instructions in page # 7A-1 in Mercruiser manual # 15. You can read this manual here in the forum but you can't download it. Here is a link

http://boatinfo.no/lib/mercruiser/ma...er15.html#/608. Then jump to page 608. It is a simple procedure

With the boat in the water and loaded to the maximum load (people, rigs, etc)

a) Measure the length (in inches) from the water line to a reference point (lay a 2* on your gunnels and use the bottom or the top edge of it as reference point
b) Measure from the highest point of your elbow to the same reference point
Subtract b from a, the result must be 13 in or more. If the result is less than that, you need risers. It is very unlikely that Searay did not install risers if they were needed but you never know, maybe someone "decided" that they were not needed at some point and removed them


If your builder is a non-expert (kindly speaking) he/she might have "forgotten" to magnaflux the block and rebuild it with a crack in it. A blown head gasket will drop water in the oil also. Can the engine turn? Did you test compression?

 

[Scott Danforth]

I was going to suggest measuring the riser height compared to water level, however DeepBlue2010 beat me to it.

the other place where water and oil can mix is the engine oil cooler.

 

[mr300z87]

Thanks for the replies. After I posted this I did read the section mentioned above. However at this time all we can do is guesstimate because the boat will not be back in the water until spring. Guess we can check it then. I have seen pic of similar year SR Sundancer 250s with 5.7L power and no risers between the manifold and elbow. From what I am told the rebuilder is a professional but who knows. Since the bad just rebuilt engine has been sitting with salty water in it and plugs out since July it is frozen solid. At some point in the next couple week I will be tearing down the blown engine to look for any issues. Question, let say the boat needs to have 3in risers installed, we take boat out 2 people light load of fuel we cruise for half hour boat runs good no issues, friend adds 30 gallons fuel loads 6 adult and 2 children on boat cruises 6 miles tosses down the anchor for couple hours, on way back get to no wake zone and water pushes up past flappers and elbows and into cubustion chamber and hydrolocks engine, how much water would get past rings to the oil if any? Without a cracked block or head, corroded corroded intake, or blown head gasket how does water get into both cylinders and oil. Btw there is no oil cooler on this engine just ps cooler, I have serial # somewhere but this is a standard raw water cooled 88-89 5.7L 260 hp alpha setup tb4 ignition serial # is in the 0Cxxxxx range. I'll post more once I tear down the rebuilt engine.

 

[ibrw1]

To answer one of mr300z87's questions, I was told that milkshakes can be made in the upper combustion chamber. The water leaks past the rings. Is this true???
I'm helping neighbor find the source of his milk shaker. In his case I think blown head gasket from "Ether Man" blasting an entire can into his carb.
Hope you find the answers you need to help your buddie. This milk shake stuff scares the boating out of people!

 

[Scott Danforth]

If you know where the boat sits in the water, you can still measure. Just allow 4 inches for load

 

[mr300z87]

I can see the water line so I will measure from there to an easy reference point. So if the spec shown in Merc manual is 13 inches between point a and b measuring from the water line plus 4 inches is safe? I did some rough measuring this afternoon and found the top of the elbow a to b measurement to be 13-14 inches that is within spec but this is from the static water line mark on the hull so it is a best guess. I'll do some more research.

How much water can really get back flushed coming off plane with good flappers? The no wake is at least a half mile from his dock, so off plane until stall is about 5 to 10 min at no wake speed. I would think a rush of water would stall the engine? The engine would need to continue to run to make milk shake. Here's another note, when this first happened back in summer of 14 I did some trouble shooting we were cranking the engine with the plugs out to get the water out out and even after I drained the manifold I was still getting water cylinders.

 

[DeepBlue2010]

Not plus, minus. If the (a) measures 20 inches, you should subtract 4 inches to account for the load so a=16

 

[mr300z87]

Sorry to confuse but I was adding 4 to the merc spec of 13. Thirteen being the difference of a and b, 2 ways to get to the same solution. I like math, lol. My calculation are, if I take into account 4 in for load the top of the elbows should be at 17 in above the static water line I can see on the hull. According to my measurments sitting at the doc we are ok at 13-14 in, but with a heavy load we could have problem if water line comes up a couple inches. With heavy load it could push the elbow height to only 9 or 10 in above the waterline. Unfortunaly I could not find to many engine shots of similar boats to see if they have 3 in risers or not. Btw judging by the original 0dxxxxx serial number the dead rebuilt engine is original to the boat and can not see someone takeing out risers because the turn down tubes cost as much if not more as the risers, and shorter tubes would be required if risers were removed. If anyone has access to a similar boat let me know if the exhaust includes 3 in risers between the manifold and elbows. Tomorrow the boat is to be put bed for a while in friends driveway and final assembly will take place when time permits. I got my own projects to work on. Lol. I will find time for tear down of bad engine as we are going to part it out. Lot of usable stuff. Have great evening all.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Add 3" risers based in your measurements

 

[mr300z87]

For now Sluggo I as we like to call her is back at her home and off another friends trailer. Had a scary moment and she almost fell over while blocking.

Our other friends boat is on it trailer and headed home. I spoke to the guy who had serviced the boat for the previous owner since 1992 and he said that it never had 3 inch risers. Maybe the boat is water logged and heavier making it sit lower in the water?? Right now it is out of my hair for a while as I have to winterize mine and get her covered up before the weather turns.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Howdy,

If that boat is sitting on "cinder" blocks, it's an accident waiting to happen............

Just saying.........

Rick

 

[mr300z87]

It is out of my hands for now. I see lots of boats around here stored on blocks for the winter. With any luck the boat will fall, he can collect the insurance and get this thing out of my hair once and for all LOL. I got my own stuff to work on. With friend like him, well you know!!!!!!!!! Are the cinder block going to break? He was supposed to build side support after we left.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Are the cinder block going to break? He was supposed to build side support after we left.

It's just that cinder blocks can crack & break with no warning. Makes them dangerous for supporting anything heavy.

 

[mr300z87]

Thanks for clarifying that Rick, I will mention to my friend and see what he want to do.

I think he really want the boat to just disappear!!!. He is so done with it. I told him the problem is he changed the name with out going through the proper renaming procedure and has upset the boating GODs which is bringing him BAD mojo!!!!!

My boats are both on trailers and I want keep it that way, they come off for 2 reasons, 1 boat is in the water :joyous::joyous: getting cold here:blue: so that is done for the season or 2 the boat is getting painted so it can go in the water. BTW I am always on the look out boat stands but they seem to be a bit pricey around here and my welding skills are not up to making some to support 5000 lbs + boat. I did see some nice wooden cradles that the dealer used at a boat show, will have to see if I can find the pick I took of them as they seemed easy to make.

 

[mr300z87]

Today after finishing up winterizing my boat, (nobody was home) so I started tear down of friends engine. Mostly just removing all the external parts and assemblies. So basically I now have a long block hiding under the tarp. I did however pull both valve covers. and this is what I found.
port

starboard

It definitely had water in it, but from where. I noticed that the 2 center exhaust ports on starboard head were rusty and all 4 exhaust ports on port head showed some rust. I will keep digging when time permits

Now here is the weird thing, when we drained the block during engine removal we noticed the water had a blueish color (raw water cooled) and when I removed the large hose that goes from thermostat housing to the water pump the water in it had the same blueish color and this nasty blue sludge came out, kinda looked like Merc HP gear oil, but it DOES NOT feel oily. Any ideas? Oil in cooling system? Here is a pic of it on the ground before I cleaned it up.

I have never seen anything like that?

Back to work tomorrow so no more fun until maybe this weekend.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Well,

Before pulling the heads, You should pressure check the cooling system to see if it's leaking someplace. If there is a leak, do a compression (leakdown) check on each cyl and see if it leaks into the cooling system


That might point you in the right direction. If you have already pulled the heads, you cannot pressure check the cooling system.