Volvo 350 seized

[adamkat22]

First off, I am pretty new to this forum and I am VERY new to working on this engine. I'm a hobby diesel mechanic (as in i fix my own diesel cars when they break) but a lot of this is new to me..so thanks for the patience...I've learned a lot just reading around on this forum and hope to learn more!

I have a boat (from the early 70's) with a seized Mercruiser 350. I looked at where there is supposed to be a serial number but don't see one. It says 5.7 LG stamped on the motor (not sure if that is helpful). I don't know much about the history of the boat or the engine except that it was last put in the water at least 6 years ago. There were 3 drain plugs out when I got the boat. I have found two that go on each side of the engine and still need to locate where the third one is from. I'd like to see if I can get it running but this is all pretty new to me. Here is what I have done so far...

Tried turning it over by hand (not too much pressure but using a breaker bar) and it wouldn't turn. I pulled all 8 spark plugs and 2 of them (1 one each side) showed rust on the tips of the plug. I dumped in marvel mystery oil (at the suggestion of prior posts). I was able to get a lot of oil into 6 of the cylinders, but 2 of them (1 on each side) don't seem to take oil...it just dribbles out.

I gave it oil yesterday and just tried going back and forth on the bolt with a regular sized wrench..so i'm really not applying much pressure. Today I put a tiny bit more oil in and tried going back and forth on the bolt again for about a minute or so. I don't actually feel anything moving but my understanding is that at first it may only be moving the slightest bit until the oil works itself in and the rust breaks up?

Am I on the right track? Should I be letting the oil sit longer before trying to turn it over? How much pressure am I supposed to be putting on the bolt? Is the fact that there was rust on 2 of the spark plug tips a bad sign that there was water in the cylinder?

Thanks for any help!

 

[Bt Doctur]

You NEVER use the nose bolt to turn a motor over NEVER
remove the outdrive and drop a starter in it

 

[adamkat22]

yikes really? i had spoken to a few people and they all had told me to do that. the boat is in the water currently so i guess if i need to remove the outdrive to get it going then it will have to be a project for later down the road...

 

[81 Checkmate]

What tthe Doc is saying is you will snap that front bolt off. Dont want to do that! Could be the drive is locked up and the motor wont turn.
Proly 2 pistons on TDC thats why oil seeps out. Get a strap wrench and put on the front pulley to try and turn by hand or get the starter to work and bump it over.

 

[smokeonthewater]

Well we're close... There is a special socket you can buy from any performance auto parts place like jegs or summit etc that fits the crank snout... You remove the damper (requires a puller) and slip it on in it's place... Then you can bat it over.
Definitely do NOT crank it with the starter until you have rotated it several times by hand.

Yes def pull the drive BUT having set for years it's very likely the engine.

When turning by hand you likely need to apply more pressure and you should at least feel a slight movement but may be too small to see.

In my experience ATF is the best thing to free it up.

Once it starts to move do NOT go right away into full revolutions... Instead continue to rock it back an forth only a few degrees more at a time.... 100 cycles before you get to a full turn is NOT too many.... Do it by feel... The idea is to carefully polish the rust out, not gouge it... Your cylinders, rings, and piston skirts will thank you.

 

[biggjimm]

"In my experience ATF is the best thing to free it up."


ATF works good but in my experience you'll not find anything better or faster than plain old brake fluid. I keep a old pump squirt oil can full of brake fluid for all my penetrating oil needs. Like said above don't get in a big hurry to try & get it to turn all the way over. Sometimes you'll get all the way around save for 10 or 20 degrees & it might take a while to get it all cleaned up but if you are patient & slowly work it & let the oil do it's job you might just get lucky & have a decent running motor. Get in too big of a hurry & you could snap a ring or have a motor that burns a lot of oil & smokes like a 2 stroke with blow by like crazy & low compression & oil fouled plugs all the time. Good luck.

 

[Fishermark]

...there were 3 drain plugs out when I got the boat. I have found two that go on each side of the engine and still need to locate where the third one is from

Don't know where you live, but that is a bigger problem potentially than the engine being seized. It sounds like the engine froze and the core plugs popped out. Very high probability that the block is cracked.

Even if you get the engine to eventually turn over the chances of it running well now are very slim.

Nothing wrong with continuing what you are trying... but I wouldn't put any money into it till you can verify that the engine is worth saving.

 

[smokeonthewater]

He said DRAIN plugs, not freeze plugs....

 

[adamkat22]

thanks everyone for your replies and thanks for your patience as i try and understand the options and wade through them. here's my clarifications so far:

-i guess i don't know the difference between drain plugs and freeze plugs. all i know is i found three plugs that had been pulled and placed on top of the engine (two are a larger diameter than the third). i assume that means it was winterized.

-if i have already put MMO in should i stick with that or can i try a little brake fluid or ATF? is there such thing as 'too much' of any of these?

-If I am understanding 81CheckMate correctly than his idea sounds like the one that is most viable to me with my lack of experience. I put the strap wrench on the harmonic balancer (is that what you mean by front pulley?) Once on there I can safely and slowly add a little pressure just to get any bit of movement out of it at first...to get things going? Can I do this without having to pull the drive? Any work that I can do while the boat is in the water I would like to do now..otherwise it will have to wait until the end of the season.

thanks all so much for your help! i'm excited to learn about this engine/outboard and even more excited to think that maybe one day it would run...although i won't get my hopes up for that quite yet

 

[Bt Doctur]

Would seen like a lot of work if it is the drive thats seized.

 

[Bondo]

Can I do this without having to pull the drive?

Ayuh,..... Welcome Aboard,.... The drive turns With the crankshaft,..... The problem Could be the drive,....

No way to tell, til ya pull it,.....

 

[biggjimm]

I've got a pipe wrench that has a length of what looks like a motorcycle chain with studs on the links that lock into the wrench for large diameter pipes, it works just like a strap wrench but way better. If you could get a hold of one of those they're the berries for the task at hand. That's what I use.

It's real easy to pull the drive once it's out of the water. The reason for the suggestion of pulling the drive is if it's the outdrive that's frozen & not the engine, then you would be wasting a lot of time messing with the engine, although it does sound like there is definitely issues with the engine.

About these "plugs" you found. Are they threaded & look kinda like a radiator drain petcock about a half inch or so in diameter, or are they big & round & smooth, like 1.5 inches in diameter or so? If it's the latter, then they are core plugs (commonly & mistakenly called freeze plugs by most) & their being out most likely means the block has been frozen & is probably cracked as well. What does the engine oil look like? Any sign of water in it? Is it over full? It probably won't be milky if it hasn't been run since a freeze/crack issue but might still show signs of water in the crankcase. Good luck with it.

 

[smokeonthewater]

The correct tool is the socket I mentioned... The balancer is multi peice and has a rubber core sandwiched between the metal parts... It is not designed to withstand the torque needed to free a stuck engine.

It won't hurt a thing to add ATF to the existing oil but it also may not be needed.. Personally I would keep brake fluid away from my boat.... Keep in mind that whatever you put in there will be sprayed out once you get the engine free and crank it with the starter... ATF and oil clean up pretty easily.. Brake fluid at a minimum peels paint but also I believe it could damage vinyl and other materials in short order.... I don't know if it could damage fiberglass or not..

 

[smokeonthewater]

http://m.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66901?seid=srese1&gclid=CJ-IhK6HkscCFQEaaQod5AIPOg

 

[biggjimm]

Yeah, I wasn't thinking about the fact that in his situation that brake fluid could potentially get on things that it could be harmful to. I don't think it would hurt fiberglass but not sure about upholstery & carpeting. It definitely Will eat paint if left on it for any length of time.

And smokeonthewater is absolutely correct the socket to fit on the crankshaft is the best way to do it once the balancer is removed. You'll need a harmonic balancer puller too though. And DO NOT try to use any puller that attaches to the outside hub, you will pull the balancer apart. It must attach to the 3 bolts that hold the pulley on. Gear pullers will not work!

 

[adamkat22]

No Title

Thanks for the link to the socket. I can order that. Unfortunately I will also need to be walked through removing the damper (since I don't know what/where that is and what type of puller I need) but I guess I can wait till the socket arrives. Thanks for everyone's patience and replies so far.

In terms of the plugs, if all goes well I've attached a picture of them. There are two of the larger ones (they measure roughly 1/2" diameter and 5/8" tall) and one of the smaller one (measures roughly 3/8" diameter and 1/2" tall).

 

[Bondo]

Ayuh,.... Those are drain plugs, the larger is 1/4" pipe for the block drains, 'n the other is 1/8" pipe,....

Yer wastin' yer time, 'n money tryin' to free the motor, With the Drive Still Attached,.....

 

[smokeonthewater]

The puller you need is a 'harmonic balancer puller" you can get it at any auto parts store.

Normally I would agree with Bondo here if it had seized while running or over night... Having set for several years and having rusty spark plugs makes it VERY likely the engine.... That said, it's only 7 bolts to pull the drive and a cheap gasket to put it back on... Wouldn't hurt to try.

 

[adamkat22]

Ok I'm sorry to be such an idiot (and have such long amounts of time in between responses) but I think I need a little back up info. I'm interested in trying smokeonthewaters plan of using the special socket on the crankshaft...but there are a lot of things that need to happen to get to the crankshaft that i still don't understand and i'm having trouble finding info in prior posts (it may be that i still don't have the correct terminology down to search things accurately).

can someone just help define these things for me and let me know how they relate (or where they are in relation to) the harmonic balancer:

crank snout
damper
outside hub

to clarify, i need to get a 'harmonic balancer puller' from an autoparts store which should be generic? and then i pull the balancer and somewhere in there will be a bolt that i put that specialty socket on?

also, for what its worth, since there has been MMO marinating in there for a few weeks today I had a small socket on the nose bolt and it moved ever so slightly counterclockwise. i know this was a major 'no-no' but i assumed i couldn't break a bolt with just a regular ratchet. in any event i thought that it had actually freed it up and over the course of 100 or more very small back and forth rotations the bolt was turning a little more and a little more...till i was getting about a half turn out of the bolt. i was pretty pumped but in the end i realized all that i had done was loosed that bolt..allowing me to loosen it by hand which made the pulley loose. that bad?

 

[Bt Doctur]

First thing you need to do is STOP what your doing.You can view and print from this site http://boatinfo.no/lib/library.html#
Think it might be manual 17 for you.
To use a harmonic balancer puller remove the pully bolts (3) and maybe the "nose bolt"
Depending on the quality of the puller, reinstall the nose bolt to protect the threads. Better puillers have this already mounted on the center bolt.
Install the 3 puller bolts ,threaded in all the way,and make sure the puller is straight, tighten the center bolt to remove the balancer.
The special socket fits over the keyway in the crankshaft and uses a 1/2 inch ratchet or breaker bar to turn the motor.
But all this is useless unless the drive has been removed first.