Strange Bogging / Hesitation Issue with Evinrude 150XP V6 Outboard

[wespants]

First I want to say thank you in advance for any advice you can offer on resolving this issue. I've spent $$$ for the local Johnny/Rude expert to guess at my issue and I've read countless threads on this and other forums, and I still can't pinpoint the problem. I'm hoping this thread will serve to not only resolve my issue but educate others as well.

I'll start with a quick "bullets" of the issue at hand for those that want to get right to the point, then go into detail below on what led to this point and where I'm thinking I'll go next.

Boat: 1989 Wellcraft Sport (aka V18, Fisherman) Center Console - 1800lb dry weight
Engine: 1987? Evinrude 150XP V6, 2-stroke, 3 carbs, VRO disabled (premix), hours unknown, not ran in about 4 years, recent compression test all cylinders +/- 2psi from average but average was around 77psi
Water separator: None
Prop: 14.5x19 aluminum
My background: 4th boat, a few hundred hours (engine time) experience (including another boat with an Evinrude V6 200 Ocean Pro), above average mechanical inclination but NOT a grease monkey

The good:
- Boat starts relatively easily but requires using a fast idle via the shifter (in neutral) to keep it running until it warms up
- Idle is OK after warming up, no sneezing, backfires or cutting off, not the smoothest in the world but no *apparent* misfiring - seems similar to my old 200
- WOT yields 44mph with 2 onboard and light fuel and equipment, RPM unknown (tach broke, will replace) but I'd guess 5000-5500
- Seems to make good power and run smoothly at or very near WOT, fuel usage seems about right (maybe 10gph WOT)

The problems:
1) Sometimes unable to accelerate to plane, engine bogs down and will die if i don't back off (happens at some point during each outing, and will happen repeatedly for a few minutes then will clear up)

2) Unable to push up on the trailer, it bogs down every time as the throttle is advanced (I presume due to more load on the engine since the boat isn't moving)

3) When trying to maintain plane at a lower throttle, engine runs rough or feels like it is surging

4) At one instance on my last outing, it would drop a little RPM when the trim motor was running; hasn't happened before or since (maybe ignore this?)

Background: Got a great deal (I thought) on this boat as a trade for another boat that I only had about $700 in (it was worth more). Engine ran and revved OK out of water. It was transplanted to this boat from a fish and ski. Did a lot of cleaning and replacing various accessories, swapped out the trailer, etc. First order of business engine wise was new lower unit lube and impeller swap (by mechanic). Lower unit fluid looked good. Added some fresh fuel to what little was in tank (internal tank, should've drained but didn't).

On the maiden voyage I noted that the tach was jumpy and inaccurate. Idle and "no wake" travel was OK, but engine would bog down and die (unless I backed off) trying to get on plane. Also, anything over a fast idle set off a very annoying steady warning horn (which I learned was the fuel starvation alarm). Once I was back on land I found fuel leaking inside the cowling and noticed the little inline filter. Changed the filter and fixed the leak (hose clamp).

Made another trip to the lake - same issue. Tried pumping the bulb when it was starving for fuel but no help. Bulb wasn't sucking flat. It wasn't firm; it was squishy. Called some mechanics, talked to some friends, researched some forums and concluded it was in need of a carb rebuild. The labor cost was more than I could bare so I ordered kits and rebuilt them with the help of an experienced friend. This included using Chem Dip, compressed air, etc. We punched out the little aluminum circles (whatever they are) and cleaned behind and replaced them (heard this was critical). Blew all the jets out, etc. Upon bolting them back up noticed that the throttle throw on the console wasn't enough to open the butterflies all the way. Noted this but didn't adjust anything.

Back to the lake again. No change. None. Fail. Saw a guy with the same motor who had the same problem at one point. He soaked his engine with WD-40 to loosen some linkages related to the timing advance. He said it's also a good way to hear vacuum leaks. Tied the boat to the dock and left it unattended while I went to Wal-Mart. Returned with WD-40 and soaked everything. Didn't heard vacuum leaks, didn't fix the problem. Fail, again. Off to the mechanic. He ran the engine (in a tank, under some load I suppose) successfully using his fuel tank. Put a vaccuum gauge on the motor and said it was good (>6?, but I forget the unit of measure). Said it would only pull 2? off my tank. Said the ethanol had degraded the fuel lines. Replaced lines from the tank to the fuel pump. Replaced bulb. Replaced original straight connector with an anti-siphon valve. Test run was OK in tank.

To the lake. For the first time the boat gets on plane, but if I try to push the throttle any faster than just barely on plane I still get a fuel starvation alarm. Steering has an unbearable pull to the left. Back to the mechanic. He found some trash (presumably deteriorated fuel hose) in the in-line filter (under cowl). Still runs good in his test tank. His theory is that trash is clogging the inlet when sloshing around at the lake but not sitting on the trailer at his place. Says the boat is over propped (with a SS Raker 14.5x22, cupped). Says the sync and link (which I asked him specifically to check because I was concerned about the timing advance) "looked" good - doubt he followed the factory procedure here. Finally says that my issue of not achieving WOT is due to adjustments inside the Morse helm control and nothing at the engine end. Suggest that I clean out my tank (somehow) and upgrade my steering.

So this gave me some stuff to do. I tried siphoning the tank but had no luck getitng the outlet end of my siphon low enough to run steadily. Decided to pump out some fuel with the bulb into a clear container instead. Disconnect from the engine and started pumping. Got a couple of small pieces of stuff then it looked good. Didn't see any water. Noticed that the bulb was VERY slow to refill. No wonder the big 'Rude is starving. Replaced the anti-siphon valve with the original straight connector. Bulb filled quickly. Pumped a couple gallons out. No trash. No water. Made adjustments inside the Morse helm control with the threaded connector and positioning the rod into another hole. Adjusted the steer trim tab with the rear toward the direction of pull as far as possible.

To the lake, again. Hooked engine to my pumped out small tank. NO more fuel starvation alarm. Boat achieves WOT and 39mph. Hooked back to the main tank. Works just the same as on the small tank. OK, getting better. Idle is WAY too fast. Made helm adjustments there until I found a good balance of opening the carbs enough and having a good idle speed. Steering is still pulling hard to the left. Still won't push up on trailer. Still struggles at middle RPM. Returned home. Swapped the Raker for the 19 pitch prop.

To the lake. New prop yields better acceleration, more WOT RPM and a higher top speed trimming out at 44mph. Still having mid range issues with fluctuating, running rough, etc. Still pulls hard left. Back home. Found a trim tab riveted to the skeg (aftermarket). Drilled these out and rid myself of it.

Most recent trip to the lake (this time going primarily for fishing, secondarily for diagnostics). Steering is cured! Can release the wheel and she runs true. Turns to either side easily. Awesome! Still having midrange power issues. Still won't push onto trailer. Had a couple of frighting episodes a few miles from the dock where it would bog and not get on plane. Probably scared my passengers. It resolved itself somehow after letting it set a minute. Again, it would run at or near wide open. Anything else and it ran really rough, surged, etc. A time or two it would be running at or near WOT and just die (that was wild). Also had the strange trim motor killing my RPM incident but that stopped.

Next steps:

Borrowed a timing light. Would like to check timing at speed and under load (seems crazy but I read that it is the most accurate way). Also borrowed an engine analyzer. This should at least tell me my RPM but I'm wondering if I can detect misfires or incorrect timing advance if they exist. Could I have coil or power pack issues? How is the best way to check? Pulling a plug at a time, under load and under way? Upon last inspection all the plugs looked similar, if that means anything. Could my low compression be the issue? I've since ran some Seafom thru it - maybe that helped. Should I "dunk" it to decarb it and check compression again? Does the compression # really matter if they were even and if it will run 44mph? Is it worth swapping plugs? I'm leaning toward a timing advance issue still but can't find a procedure for a link and sync, can anyone explain how to do it on this engine?

I just really need this thing to run more consistently and reliably overall, and to run smoothly at the more preferable cruising speeds.

Congrats if you made it to the end of this, and again MANY THANKS!!!

 

[racerone]

Step # 1 is to find a shop with a dynomometer.--------Then have the motor tested with a known good fuel supply.-------See if it producing proper power.----------Once that is done you will know / get advice on what to look at next.

 

[1983 ercoa 21']

I also have a 150xp 1985 . I didn't have the same issues that your having but I did have a few but when I was going back over things I noticed that when controls was at wide open throttle not running that the timer base was not at the stop so it was sticking I lived it with wd and worked it back and forth and got it working you should check this. Also IV always heard a erratic tach is a sine something is wrong with stator which also hints to the trim motor effecting things due to draw which stator is also the charging system. Which brings to mind the magnets on the flywheel are bad about coming lose which will cause more damage and cost more. I pulled mine for peace of mind you should check yours. Good luck. By the way my problems was power pack changed it ran fine for one trip then started the same on same side the other power pack was bad effecting the other side replaced it and plug wires all is good.

 

[wespants]

Thanks for the replies so far!

Regarding the dyno, I'm not sure of anywhere nearby that offers such a service. While I'd be curious to know the max power, and appreciate the suggestion, getting enough power isn't really my problem. I realize you're saying that if it isn't getting max power it indicates there is a problem. But unless that directly tells me what the problem is, I'm not sure that it matters that I'm not getting max power. I don't really expect to out of a motor that old. But at 44mph, it's certainly adequate and within the range of what I'd expect from a 150 on that hull.

Regarding the magnets/stator/power pack suggestion; I think you may be onto something. I'd read about those magnets coming off. How do I check? Just unbolt the flywheel and look on the bottom?

Also, how can I test the stator? I have a digital multi-meter and I'm borrowing the engine analyzer. Can I used these in some fashion?

Finally, with the power pack, would I do something like get the engine to misbehave and then move a timing light from one plug wire to the next and see if one isn't firing?

 

[durban]

You mentioned u were concerned about timing being advanced & that it looked good ,the timing should be ATDC 4 to 8 degrees & not advance start here & WOT +/- 20 degrees

 

[1983 ercoa 21']

Think my 85 XP has the timing sticker on it from the factory and is 32 or 34. As to the flywheel yes pull it to check magnets. As to the stator test you need a dva adaptor for the meter search here as to how to test stator.

 

[wespants]

Thanks guys for the information! I'll plan to pick the boat up from storage tomorrow and pull the flywheel to look at the magnets. Then I will take it to the lake Saturday morning with a timing light. So it sounds like I'm looking for between four and 8? at idle and then either 20 or 32? at WOT (I will check for sticker).

Regarding the stator: it is charging my battery fine. Could there still be something wrong with it that is causing it not to run well?

Also, I was considering ordering a plug wire set (about $40) and a new set of spark plugs (about $20). Would I be wasting my money here having not proved that they were the problem?

And a question about fuel: could it be that there is a carb problem (something lodged in a jet, stuck float) that will allow the motor to run good at wide-open and idle but not in the middle of the RPM band? Maybe I missed something cleaning it, or maybe something else got in there, but I'm thinking that if it will idle and it will run wide open then the carburetor should not be a cause of this issue. Could I be wrong? Should I pull them again? That's a lot of trouble and I would like to avoid it if possible.

 

[1983 ercoa 21']

Yes there is two parts to the stator a charging and ignition.
I ohm tested my wires they showed good. But a ohm test don't show everything. So I went ahead and put new ones on I could tell a difference.

 

[1983 ercoa 21']

Please understand there are fine people here that know way more than I do. I'm just sharing what little knowledge I have.

 

[wespants]

I will gladly take all the help I can get and it is appreciated! I am at my wits, and my wallets, end with this engine. I can't afford to pay mechanics anymore, especially since they don't seem to be able to fix it due to the fact that it is intermittent and does not present itself in a test tank. This is very good advice so far. I am planning to start putting it to use tomorrow night. I will replace plug wires and plugs, but I will not have the wires for a few days.

 

[Faztbullet]

77psi is really low for that engine and try trimming up a tad when loadin g as the V boats sometimes when loading will bury the exhaust reliefs

 

[wespants]

That is great advice on trimming the boat while loading. I will definitely try that! Here's my plan for the next 48 hours:

Tomorrow evening after work, pull the flywheel and check for the magnets being all in place. While I'm there, clean and re-grease the timing advance mechanism. Use a spark gap tester that I will buy tomorrow to look at the quality of the spark at each plug.

Saturday morning, head to the lake with a 1 gallon can of seafoam "dunk". Hook this to the engine and perform the decarb method of the same name. Then scream around the lake for a little while at WOT off the main tank. Using my borrowed engine analyzer, see what max RPM is (tach still broke). If it is between 5000 and the rev limiter (5800?) I will conclude that I am hitting on all cylinders at WOT and that my prop is appropriately sized. Next, break out the timing light and check idle timing to be around 7?, and timing at 5000 RPM to be at 28?. Adjust as needed. Finally, use the timing light to check for consistent firing on each cylinder's plug wire, especially when operating in the troublesome RPM range while the engine is misbehaving.

Finally, if the problem is fixed or not, do a compression test to see if the decarb helped the situation. I'm buying a remote starter tomorrow too. Last time, like an idiot, I just unhooked the spark plug boots. I'm lucky the they didn't ignite fuel vapor, or that I didn't ruin my ignition system (maybe I did...).

 

[Bosunsmate]

You said initially idles too fast, dont worry about what it is on the flywheel just adjust the idle stop adjustment right down so that when shes warm she just keeps going when in idle.
As for your max timing 28degs sounds like a lot, im not sure what your engine needs but if you got that number off the flywheel dont think the max number is what you want to have. I always keep mine a couple of degs less than what the manual calls for as too much timing BTDC will burn up your pistons

 

[durban]

You would need a ignition Analyzer to set the timing as its static timing thought i would just bring this to your attention if you don't know all the best & good luck:joyous:

 

[wespants]

Thanks again for the tips! Regarding my idle, I think I've already got that adjusted pretty close. The problem I had before was due to the adjustment on the helm end of the shift/throttle cable.

Regarding static timing I think I mis-spoke. I was going to check timing at idle and at WOT with an inductive timing light. I don't know much about this and was probably calling idle timing static timing. I don't have the other equipment needed to check static timing, and I don't suppose I'll check it at this time.

28 degrees does seem high for WOT timing, but the manual calls for 32 :shocked:.

 

[1983 ercoa 21']

My understanding of the XP series motors or the 80s were they had lower compression than alot of other motors and they also had more timing than the higher compression motors. With this being said they also were under rated on hp they tell me they really produce 165 rather than the 150. You really need to pay attention to the wot rpms when things are working properly so to know if your running the proper prop .

when you say vrois bypassed are you still using the fuel pump side of the pump?
I changed to the older duel pumps on mine before even getting on the water reason being was the plastic hose barb that's glued on popped lose also had the same problem with one of the same problems with one of the hose barbs on one carb.

 

[wespants]

I read that too, but I have not see any official factory specifications. I hope that is the case!

I am not sure if that is the original VRO or of the pump has been replaced. I could take a picture of it and maybe someone can identify it.

So removing the flywheel is a lot bigger deal than I thought. I started at it last night and upon doing a little research realized I didn't have the proper tools (namely the puller) and it was more of a job than I was ready to tackle.

I did spend some time looking up under really good with flashlight. I saw the little coils and some magnets. I didn't see anywhere that it particularly looked like something was missing.

One thing I noticed messing with it was that the timing advance would not come all the way to the stop if I push the lever down gently. I sprayed that mechanism And the lever with PB Blaster and tried working it back and forth. It still isn't much better. But this gives me something to try. Today, with an assistant driving, I can see is it advancing all the way. I'm thinking that the rotation and vibration may actually be helping it along, but it certainly was not doing it when off.

If it is not moving all the way up, I will push it fully forward manually (carefully) and see if this fixes my problem. I also picked up a spot and get tester. I plan to test the strength and consistency of the spark through the RPM range for each cylinder. I may replace plugs to too. And of course, I will check the timing and de carb. Big day today! I hope to see some results. Also going to try tilting motor up as I'm loading to see if that will stop her from cutting off. Thanks for all the help so far!

 

[Faztbullet]

You would need a ignition Analyzer to set the timing

All you need is a timing light,,,,,,no analyzer needed.

 

[1983 ercoa 21']

That could explain alot with timer base sticking. It goes to full advance before full throttle. Look forward to seeing your results.
if you have a puller and metric bolts the flywheel removal is really simple

 

[wespants]

Things didn't go quite as expected at the lake. They actually went better?

When I stopped to fuel up and make my "dunk" I realized that I had forgotten my short fuel line to run off the external tank. Bummer. So much for decarb.

So I get to the lake in a while my friend is parking the truck I took a quick spin out of the no wake zone. It got up and ran surprisingly well. I went back and picked up my friends and we hooked up the engine analyzer I borrowed to use the tach.

I think something is wrong with the analyzer. And it showed that I was idling about 1100, which is possible. But at WOT it buried the needle off the scale past 6000 RPM. This is with three guys on board, cooler with ice, ice and the fish box, lots of rods and tackle and over half a tank of fuel. I don't think so. I think this motor has a rev limited in the power pack and I never hit it. Anyway it's still winding pretty tight, I think I'm good to go there. I'll get a tach when I have time and $.

Ont o the timing light. With the cowling off, we were able to observe the timing advance lever sticking. So, we helped it into place to check appropriate timing. It was dead on 28? top dead center at full throttle. Right where I wanted it.

When I would throttle down off of plane It kept idling really fast. Now it was obvious that the timing lever was sticking. My friend would push it back where it was supposed to go and it will drop down to a good idle and read 7? top dead center.

While doing all of this, I noticed that it was running much better than usual, so we cruised around for a while and I managed to get it to run in the "forbidden zone" at mid RPM and low cruising speed.

It still is perfect there, you can feel it and hear it surging a little bit sometimes. But, much better than before. It never sounded like it was missing. It actually ran quite well the whole night and never acted up when I would touch the trim like it did that one time. Occasionally it would bog when I would try to get on plane, but I noticed that if I heard it starting to bog down I could press the choke momentarily and it would pick up and go on. Again, I think this is mostly due to the timing advance lever sticking (at this point we had the cowling back on).

I picked up some plugs today but didn't get a chance to install them. So my plans at this point are decarb, new plugs and probably new plug wires just because it seems like a good idea, then disassemble, clean and grease the mechanisms that are causing the timing advance to stick.

I really think after that I will be good to go.

PS, when I went to load on the trailer I tilted the motor up as one of you suggested. Between this and using the choke I was able to get it to rev up and push to the stop for the first time. Yahoo!!!

I'll report back after I do the above things or if anything else changes. Hopefully someday this thread can help someone having a similar issue. And, hopefully tonight was not a fluke and I am really on the right track.