96 Rude 200 cranks and revs right to 5000 RPM after new timer base install....

[structural1]

At this point I am ready to throw this shop off the damn pier?. I thinking my timing is way to advanced due to a local shop changing my timer base? revs at cranks to 5000 RPM?.

So a month ago my 96 rude 200 died on the lake (running fine? then simply would not crank). Brought it to a local ?marine shop? that was recommended (I am new to Raleigh NC and didn?t know the local shops) and they diagnosed bad timer base. This is the non OIS type Evinrude. So to be on the safe side I had them replace base, pack, and coil. Pick the boat up last week and headed to the lake today. She started after a second or two but immediately reved to 5000 rpm and stayed there. I thought what the hell and shut it down after 3 or 4 seconds. Cranked it again and it went to 5000 rpm? I let it run for a few seconds and then it backed down to 4500? So the quick start is technically working as I would have thought. First thought was its getting way too much gas? so maybe idled way too damn high??? Backed off the idle stopper and still cranked and idled to 5000 then back down to 4500. What the ?F???? thought maybe was primer solenoid dumping excess fuel into the manifold? so I made sure red knob was pointed down and disconnected the lead coming off the solenoid? So now primer solenoid was pretty much deactivated. Same story? cranked and reved to 5000 then down to 4500.
So my next thought is for some reason maybe the timing was wayyyyyy advanced and even with the idle bolt being backed all the way out the timing was still advanced enough to rev it so high. On this motor as I understand it in the manual (and from observation)?. When throttle is applied (by either throttle advance lever on control or the control/shifter itself once in gear)?. The mechanism advances the timing before it opens the butterflies? when throttle is backed down the butterflies start to close and timing retards.

But the timing adjust screw and lock nut still had the orange OMC ?WAX? from the factory on it. The shop hadn?t adjusted it at all. Sitting at the dock I loosened the lock nut and gave the timing adjust nut 4 good turns clockwise (retarded the timing). Cranked up and it reved to 4000?. Then after 5 secs to 3400? Better?

Killed it? 3 more turns clockwise on timing adjust? tightened down? cranked up and went to 1800 rpm? then 5 secs later down to 1000? A little high but sounded a lot better. But now every 6 or 7 seconds it gets cough and a puff of white smoke out of the exhaust?. Idles nice then a cough and puff white smoke?

Boat is going back to shop Monday but my Holiday weekend is screwed cuz of these jackwads. What do you guys think??? What could they have done to cause this? If timing adjust bolt wasn?t modified and they just installed a new timer base? what could they have screwed up to cause this?

 

[Faztbullet]

Timer base wont cause this, if timer base was at max itr wouldn't be over 3000rpms, sound more like sync and link off and carbs propped open....

 

[structural1]

No Title

Hi FastBullet... Thanks for the response. So Timer Base wouldn't cause this? I pulled the silencer and the butterflies are in normal "almost" closed "idle" position. I watched the butterflies and when it cranks and revs to 5000 they stay in the "almost" closed "idle" position. I looked closely and all 6 Butterflies appear to be in the same position in the throat (no obvious variances across the 6 carbs). The shop didn't touch the carbs "or so they said" and she was idleing fine before the base went out. When you change the Pack, Stator, and Base.... I don't think you have to remove carbs or mess with sync/linkages right? Could the carbs be causing this rev to 5000 RPM even with the Butterflies in the "almost closed" idle position I thought maybe the Primer Solenoid was going bad and dumping fuel into the manifold.... so I disconnected the lead wire and made sure the red knob was turned down. No change.

 

[Bosunsmate]

Flywheel installed incorrectly perhaps.
Puff of white smoke.... Have a look at your spark plugs, any showing rust? Any pistons looking steam cleaned from water ingress?

 

[daselbee]

Fazt is exactly correct. Timer base when fully advanced and butterflies closed will only cause the engine to race up to 3k or so.
Also, there is really no HP generated when in this mode, as only idle fuel is being supplied.

You say "almost closed" on the butterflies....let me advise you with no question.....those butterflies must be CLOSED at idle. Not almost closed. CLOSED.

You don't say which timing screw you are messing with. Was it the WOT screw or the idle screw in the black timing link "cigar tube" looking mechanism.
Or at least I can't tell from your post.

Disabling the primer solenoid by removing the electrical connector is NOT a complete disable job. What if the primer solenoid is leaking?
To properly disable it, clamp off the incoming fuel line with a suitable tool. I use a needle nose vice grip.

 

[structural1]

Hi Daselbee.... thanks for the response. To be on the 100% sure side I did disconnect the gas line going from the primer to the manifolds and plugged it with a screw. The lead wire from solenoid was also unplugged. So I am 100% sure its not the primer solenoid dumping gas. On the butterflies... the only reason I didn't say they were completely closed is that I would assume they needed to be a tiny little bit open at idle ( I can't see any opening in the butterfly when I look into the throat.) The timing screw I turned a few turns clockwise to retard timing is the Red Arrow in the pic 2 replies up. Sorry for the small pic post but if you click on the pic it opens up larger on your screen. It is the "black cigar looking tube".

Someone suggested that this sounds like a massive air leak getting through one or more of the carbs and not connected to the timing/idle at all. This would drive me crazy because the shop didn't do anything to the carbs so what could they have screwed up that caused a large air leak?

Could an air leak cause this issue and me retarding timing just be counter measuring the air leak? What do you think?

 

[daselbee]

You have some misconceptions.
Red arrow is indeed the spring loaded link that moves the timerbase when throttle is applied.
Blue arrow is the idle timing adjust screw, which is the screw used to adjust idle speed.
Yellow arrow is not idle adjust. Precisely, it is the idle STOP screw, that creates a landing point or fixed stop position for the linkage to return to when controls are in neutral.

That idle stop screw, along with the WOT stop screw limit the travel of the linkage from one point to the other.

The carbs MUST BE ABSOLUTELY CLOSED. They are NOT cracked open slightly for idle purposes.
If they are cracked open, and your idle timing is whacked due to the repair, then yes....maybe the engine could race up as high as you say.
But with the carbs completely closed, as they should be, the engine will not go above maybe 3k as stated above.
With carbs cracked, you are getting more gas than just idle circuit gas.

PM me if you want...swap phone numbers. Too much to type here.
I can send you a PDF of the manual to do your link and sync properly.
Link and sync is a very easy process...IF you grasp the concept of what they are trying to do. What the end goal is, and why.

 

[structural1]

Boy o Boy the fun continues..... So I brought it back to the shop... and here is what they are saying (Boy I hope I aint being screwed here)..

Mechanic (who has all the Johnson/Evinrude certs)... says that the "timing ring in the flywheel" is stripped and is spinning inside the flywheel... and that the "timing" ring is matched to the flywheel so a new or rebuilt "timing ring" /flywheel is needed. Not sure I even know what the hell that timing ring is. I can't find that "timing ring" in a parts breakdown anywhere. He says that some shops do "timing ring/flywheel rebuilds"... and he can get a rebuilt one next week.

Does this make sense? Stripped timing ring? Is he talking about the magnets on the inside of the flywheel? Anyone heard of a stripped "timing ring"? What the hell is that?

Am I being screwed here?

 

[daselbee]

I got one. As I said, PM me.

He is not wrong, I just would not use the words timing ring.

They are the center hub magnets, and he should be able to show you they are loose.

 

[daselbee]

Tell him to show you how they are loose. That will tell you if this is on the up and up.

But it is possible.

 

[boobie]

If that ring is loose and has slipped you can glue it back in the right position if you have the right chart. The rebuild shop must have the chart.

 

[boobie]

OMC had problems with this happening back in those days. Just like the outer magnets in the flywheel dropping off.

 

[daselbee]

Yes they can be fixed. I have fixed maybe three - four in the past. But the work is very precise. The magnet is maybe 2.5 inches in diameter, and must be glued back in exactly the right position, If you are off by 1/16 of an inch....and assuming a 2.5 inch diameter, that translates to roughly 3 degrees error.

If the hub is 3 inches, a 1/16 inch error in magnet placement translates to about a 1 degree error.

I have repaired flywheels on the shelf if anyone needs one. All magnets glued and tight.