91 Johnson 60 - seems to have heating issue with hood on

[CritterCatcher]

Model #: J60TLEIB
Boat: 89 16' SeaSquirt

Motor was supposedly recalled from 89 so a 91 was installed. That was the story given to us by the original owner.

The Problem: It seems to run well and idle after it is warmed up a bit. We have been messing with all of the adjustments (after reading over numerous posts across the web) except timing. Only the advance is being moved. Well it seems that I have the carbs, throttle, and all that jazz set to run decently. But when the hood is on and run pretty hard, it seems to not want to idle or start hardly unless the hood is pulled and allowed to cool off. It pisses just fine. Hole is in the top of the block. No warning alarm, and yes it does work.

A few specs: The tank has a new line leading into the tank (20 gal aluminum in floor). Tank is in good shape minus the gas gauge doesn't work. Always filled with non-ethanol fuel (Original owner claimed the same). Fuel runs into water separator/filter under the seat. Then out to a cheap walmart fuel filter (we have it more so you can see if fuel is moving or not). Then the bulb up to a new connection piece. We also found later it has a filter on the block as well. Running into so clean carbs (I have cleaned them multiple times thinking they were always the problem. I stripped all of the parts out of them and put them back together (3 carb setup). The butterflies all open and close in time. We were running NGKs, but have switched to Champion gapped at .030".

A little history: Bought the boat with a bad rectifier. Put a new one on. Hasn't burned one up since. Hoping it was a backwards battery. It was supposedly always garage kept and saw only occasional saltwater (in FL). Now it is known to be garage kept and sees equal salt and fresh, but will be mainly salt. We run it after everytime it sees salt on muffs. It seemed to run well after a little TLC of disposable items. Only problem we had was if left trimmed all the way down, it would sometimes flood itself? I cleaned the carbs thinking it was a sticking float. The problem seems to have gone now unless it is hard to start and you are turning it over for an extended period. We had been recently battling it would either not idle and run like the dickens, or would idle great and just bog or cut out at higher RPMs. I think I have that fixed. I think we had some issues with air getting into the fuel at the motor connection but not sure.

Now for something a little concerning to me: The set of the idle screws. I tried so hard to get it to run starting with what I read being factory specs of 2.5 turns out.
Well here is what I have them out to get it to run in what seems like a normal manner.
Top: ~0.5 turns
Middle: ~1.5 turns
Bottom: ~0.75 turns

Oh, and yes, 120lbs compression in all 3 cylinders.

Any ideas??
If any more info is needed, I will gladly do whatever I can. This thing has been driving me nuts the passed few months.

 

[daselbee]

Way to lean at those needle turns. You are not getting enough gas thru there to allow it to run properly. So, why does it run at all? I suspect you have fuel entering the engine from some other source than the idle circuits. First suspect is the primer solenoid. Take a small vise grip, (or some other suitable clamping method), and clamp off the incoming fuel line to the primer solenoid. If the primer solenoid is leaking fuel, the engine will probably stall because you have cut off the external supply of fuel.
Speaking of the primer solenoid, you do have the red lever set with it in line with the black solenoid body, right?

If the solenoid is not leaking, the only other source of fuel is the carb bowls themselves, specifically, the float levels. This is unlikely, because there would be massive leaking and dripping from the carbs.

What is the status of the primer bulb? Both of the conditions I just suggested would cause your primer bulb to not get firm.

 

[emdsapmgr]

All three carbs are "connected", so what you do to the idle screw on one carb-affects the idle adjustment on the other carbs. So it takes forever to adjust the idle screws on that engine. You need to adjust about 1/4 turn, then let the idle normalize for 30 seconds. Then make another 1/4 turn adjustment to that screw. After forever, you can go onto the next carb. You may find yourself going back and forth between carbs many times. Hope you have a lot of patience.

 

[CritterCatcher]

Way to lean at those needle turns. You are not getting enough gas thru there to allow it to run properly. So, why does it run at all? I suspect you have fuel entering the engine from some other source than the idle circuits. First suspect is the primer solenoid. Take a small vise grip, (or some other suitable clamping method), and clamp off the incoming fuel line to the primer solenoid. If the primer solenoid is leaking fuel, the engine will probably stall because you have cut off the external supply of fuel.
Speaking of the primer solenoid, you do have the red lever set with it in line with the black solenoid body, right?

If the solenoid is not leaking, the only other source of fuel is the carb bowls themselves, specifically, the float levels. This is unlikely, because there would be massive leaking and dripping from the carbs.

What is the status of the primer bulb? Both of the conditions I just suggested would cause your primer bulb to not get firm.

The solenoid is facing towards the body of the solenoid or back of the boat. Mine is a black lever, not red. It may have been replaced?

The leaning really concerned me as well. That was part of the reason for coming on here. Even lean, it should be getting fuel to run, no? And since it is already mixed by that point, should have cylinder lubrication.

The primer solenoid is only used for choking? Or is it used for starting period?

I set the floats perfectly level. I have checked that.

As for primer bulb, gets firm as it should.

 

[CritterCatcher]

All three carbs are "connected", so what you do to the idle screw on one carb-affects the idle adjustment on the other carbs. So it takes forever to adjust the idle screws on that engine. You need to adjust about 1/4 turn, then let the idle normalize for 30 seconds. Then make another 1/4 turn adjustment to that screw. After forever, you can go onto the next carb. You may find yourself going back and forth between carbs many times. Hope you have a lot of patience.

I have noticed they take a while to adjust. I have read and reread instructions to adjusting carbs.
Start with 2.5 turns out,
Middle, top, then bottom (repeat as needed)
1/4 turns till it runs good, keep going till it runs rough, then go back till it smooths out.
15 seconds between turns
This is performed at idle while in the forward moving position.

 

[daselbee]

Well, I would still suspect that you are getting fuel to the engine that is NOT going thru the carbs. Evidence of that is the irregular # of turns out that you have the carb needles set for. I would definitely clamp off the primer solenoid incoming fuel line while running to eliminate that source of fuel.

 

[CritterCatcher]

Well, I would still suspect that you are getting fuel to the engine that is NOT going thru the carbs. Evidence of that is the irregular # of turns out that you have the carb needles set for. I would definitely clamp off the primer solenoid incoming fuel line while running to eliminate that source of fuel.

We are going to try that. Was squeezing on the Oil Tank bulb and the gas bulb both. Oil tank is tighter. Gonna give it a shot and see what happens. That would also explain why fuel was tending to dump out of the front of the carbs and sometime would only start/run trimmed up.

Just throwing out ideas, the bottom two carbs are T'd after the solenoid. This would explain why the bottom one would be turned in more lean than the middle. But with it being split, and the top being a single line, it receives and more bypassing fuel to 1 carb.

Will check and post up results
Thank you.

 

[racerone]

The primer solenoid valve should only be used for starting.---The red lever for manual operation should be in line with the valve body for running of the motor.---You say the lever is black, then post a picture of the primer valve.

 

[daselbee]

there were black ones. vast majority are red tho, even the sierra repair kits....

 

[CritterCatcher]

This is exactly how mine sits, except it has a black switch.

Never mind, I don't think I can link yet.

 

[CritterCatcher]

I will try and post some pictures tomorrow, but clamped off the hose running to the solenoid with no luck. Not a single change. But It was in the driveway, so I will try again in the water.

Tore the solenoid apart anyway and the gasket (it looked to be cork or composite of some kind with a coating) looked like it needed replaced. The rubber circular gasket seemed ok.

I am going to try and replace a few fuel lines as well as clamp some off better. Any other good suggestions?

 

[daselbee]

Well, where is the fuel coming from that it is running on right now?
What is the path of that fuel to the engine? Is iit going thru the carbs? All of it?

What is your idle timing? You have any idea of the number of hours on the engine? Could it be worn out in the bottom cylinder area, piston skirt area...? If so, it won't get the proper fuel charge...poor crankcase compression will cause all sorts of weird stuff.....

 

[daselbee]

Have you pulled the welch plug on top of the carbs and cleaned the tiny holes down in that pocket?

 

[tblshur]

could the adjustment screws or seats be damaged:joyous:

 

[daselbee]

could the adjustment screws or seats be damaged:joyous:

Yup, another possibility. Also, do you have the correct idle air bleed jet for those carbs...#35 I think....

 

[CritterCatcher]

Here are some pics.

 

[CritterCatcher]

And one last one.

 

[CritterCatcher]

Well, where is the fuel coming from that it is running on right now?
What is the path of that fuel to the engine? Is iit going thru the carbs? All of it?

What is your idle timing? You have any idea of the number of hours on the engine? Could it be worn out in the bottom cylinder area, piston skirt area...? If so, it won't get the proper fuel charge...poor crankcase compression will cause all sorts of weird stuff.....

The fuel it is running on now must be from the idle jets? I'm not exactly sure how to determine where the fuel is all coming from. I don't know of any other source for fuel to get to the motor than through the carbs. I know it comes from a fixed tank/fuel separator/fuel filter/bulb/connector/fuel filter/Top of VRO/out the bottom VRO/split into 4 lines (carbs and 1 to the solenoid)/solenoid to top of carbs.

Not sure how to check idle timing either, but from what I have read, it is set from the factory and no need to change it ever. Engine hours unknown, but as stated 120lbs on each cylinder. Crankcase pressure unknown, have read leakdown test isn't that useful on a two stroke?

 

[CritterCatcher]

Have you pulled the welch plug on top of the carbs and cleaned the tiny holes down in that pocket?

Did not ever remove them. I would probably need to pick up rebuild kits before I did. I have not rebuilt the carbs. I only tore them down and cleaned them. They didn't look bad when I did. Looked to have fluid running through all orffices. I'm not against rebuilding them, but needle tips looked fine as well as christmas trees.

 

[Bosunsmate]

Your carb butterfly linkages look at slightly different angles to each other, do they all open exactly in synch when you look through the throats?
Also whats that spare wire with circle connector hanginf off your solenoid?