Am i being ripped off

[Matysiak]

Sent my boat back to the dealer again. It has a 1980 115hp Johnson V4. The syptoms were easy starting and revving on muffs, but as soon as the motor is in water, no power, no idle and a maximum of 2000 RPM.<br /><br />THe compression is good on all cylinders.<br /><br />The dealer has now checked the coils,cleaned the carbs,checked the fuel pump, set the timing and resurfaced the heads, all of which are now OK. Of course i have to pay for all this checking.<br /><br />Anyway, they now think there is a problem with the choke and want to replace it. Do the symptoms and their diagnoses agree? <br /><br />Any comments welcome.<br /><br />Stephen

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: Am i being ripped off

If, and that's a big if, your choke plate is sticking, that would cause the problem. They should have seen that first before all the other expensive work was performed. I would go down there and have them SHOW you the problem with the choke and see for yourself if that's the problem before you give them anymore money. I would also persist in some compensation, as they should have been better at diagnosing the problem in the forst place, if in fact that turns out to be the problem. Next time, got to a different Mech. Just my opinion ad what I would do...<br />EDIT: why did he resurface the heads????

 

[Dhadley]

Re: Am i being ripped off

Making sure of proper choke operation is part of the carb rebuild process just like the sync-n-link procedure. Youve already paid for it. There may be a part that needs replacing, like the solenoid, but that should have been -- as RB mentioned -- detected before. If its sticking because the spring is missing from under the plunger, it may have gotten lost during the carb job.<br /><br />I would be concerned about surfacing the heads. Why was that necessary? Exactly how much was removed? If the motor had overheated it would be but you did not mention overheat nor replacing the water pump assembly.<br /><br />Good luck!

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: Am i being ripped off

That's what's got me Dhadley. Why the heads?? $$$$$$

 

[Matysiak]

Re: Am i being ripped off

He skimmed the heads after he had cleaned the carbs. He said the engine was getting too warm.<br /><br />He said i could just remove the thermostats or re-do the heads, i choose the later. <br /><br />Why would a faulty choke cause the symptoms? Sorry for being a pain, just would like to know.<br /><br />Stephen

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: Am i being ripped off

Sounds like a hit-and-miss approach. I can't imagine recommending to run without thermostats. I suspect that he took the heads off to see if your cooling system was badly scaled-up. That happens, and will insulate the cylinders from cooling.<br /><br />Is the facility on water? This sounds like something that isn't going to show itself on muffs.<br /><br />If the choke is sticking, then it'll run way rich and you wouldn't get full power. I'm not sure what year they started using primers instead of chokes, but if those develop internal leaks it'll act pretty much like a stuck choke.

 

[Matysiak]

Re: Am i being ripped off

Unfortunately his operation isn't near any water. The closest dam is +- 30 minutes drive away. I live in Johannesburg, South Africa.<br /><br />Thanks for the feedback on the chokes. Being very rich sort of makes sense since when running on muffs a lot of smoke and oily residue occured. Oil was actually seeping all over the place. <br /><br />Anyway, i guess the best bet is to try it on water. <br /><br />Stephen

 

[Dhadley]

Re: Am i being ripped off

You also didnt mention changing the deflectors. If we're looking at a warm running crossflow motor the pump and deflectors are a standard replacement especially if they haven't been done lately. <br /><br />If he took the heads off to change the deflectors, then that's normal. But just removing the heads to cut them is kinda scarey. And there's still no mention of a water pump replacement.<br /><br />Ask him to define "skimmed". I would want to know exactly how much was cut.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Am i being ripped off

Maty..... You state that the mechanic at the dealership "thinks" that a certain problem is caused by some component. He, apparently also suggested that the thermostats be removed from the engine.<br /><br />The above line of thought can lead you into bankruptcy. When having a engine checked out and repaired, if the problem isn't solved, returning the engine to the dealership to have the same problem resolved is called in the trade, a "ComeBack" in which the dealership absorbs the cost of labor.... in effect and in actuality the customer is not charged for the mechanics oversights/mistakes! However, one can not expect the dealership to absorb the cost of any extra parts that are needed, "unless" the mechanic's oversight resulted in the destruction of those parts.<br /><br />Note that the absence of thermostats will result in scored pistons and cylinder walls.<br /><br />Resurfacing of the cylinder heads is a touchy subject. Frankly I do not advise that route. If a cylinder head is warped, replace it. Removing too much head surface will result in too much compression, which in turn will lead to pre-ignition that will melt a piston (it happens).<br /><br />Any problem should be met head on with first a compression check..... 100+ psi and even on all cyls. Then, with the s/plugs removed, check the spark which should jump a 7/16" gap with a strong blue lightning like flame on all cylinders.<br /><br />If the above two tests check out okay, the most likely cause of your problem would be either fouled carburetors ( mostly clogged fixed high speed jets within the float bowl), improperly adjusted throttle/carburetor linkage, or a sticking timer base under the flywheel.<br /><br />The fact that the carburetors were cleaned does not mean that they are indeed clean. It is easy for some to overlook manually cleaning the brass fixed high speed jets for some reason.<br /><br />The timer base can be checked by having the engine in forward gear NOT RUNNING (spin the prop while shifting), then slowly have the throttle advanced while watching the timer base assy. The timer base should steadily advance slowly up against the black rubber stop on the spark advance screw. If the timer base sticks, the spark remains retarded. Keep us informed.

 

[DJ]

Re: Am i being ripped off

Matysiak,<br /><br />You have just rceived advice from the best OMC minds on this board.

 

[Matysiak]

Re: Am i being ripped off

Just had it out with the guy at the boat shop, mentioning the comments recieved on this board. He seemed somewhat surprised at my new found knowledge - thanks everyone.<br /><br />He has agreed to waiver all labour costs, he is just going to charge me for a new solenoid for the choke.<br /><br />When i quizzed him about the skimming of the heads he said they were warped and needed skimming at that they are still within factory tolerances. <br /><br />I also questioned him about wanting to remove the thermostats and he said he always chucks them out as they are a problem on V4's? and anyway the water here in Johannesburg is pretty warm all year round so you don't need them. The lowest we normally encounter is 65 degrees.<br /><br />I am now worried that he hasn't put the thermostats back in!!!<br /><br />Regards Stephen

 

[MarkAB]

Re: Am i being ripped off

I have visited most of the boat shops in and around JHB and found that the majority are stuck up and unwilling to give advice or guidance unless they see rand notes buldging out of your pockets.<br /><br />I have found a brilliant repair shop in Germiston, Tech Marine, Allan (455-4046)<br /><br />I just had my second hand Evinrude in for a major service and got the motor back the next day with all items on my checklist (all received from these forums) attended to. The motor now runs like a dream.<br /><br />I know that he will be prepared to check out your problem by doing a boat test at Germiston Lake.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: Am i being ripped off

When i quizzed him about the skimming of the heads he said they were warped and needed skimming at that they are still within factory tolerances. <br />

So how much did he take off? What factory spec is he using?

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: Am i being ripped off

Glad to hear he at least gave you the labor off. Dhadley, I bet IF they were warped, he had to take a good bit off. I don't know about being WARPED and still withing factory tolerances We'll see...

 

[Matysiak]

Re: Am i being ripped off

Visited the boat shop today and the mechanic showed me the old choke solenoid. It was completely jammed in the down position (On the new one a plastic pipe shoots up when you add power. Would this have caused the boat to run rich and have no power? I guess we'll see how it runs this weekend.<br /><br />I didn't ask about the heads and how much was skimmed, i doubt raising a fuss would change anything.

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: Am i being ripped off

But it could effect compression and logevity of the engine in the long run. You may have to run different plugs to compensate, too.

 

[DJ]

Re: Am i being ripped off

Matysiak,<br /><br />Did you get the thermostats back in?<br /><br />I think your mechanic misses the point for having thermostats.<br /><br />Thermostats do not heat up or cool down the engine, they keep the temperature constant. Without them the block can have hot and cold spots.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Am i being ripped off

Maty..... A 1980 115hp Johnson has a Fuel Primer Solenoid, not a Choke which would incorporate choke butterflies. What is the model number of that engine?<br /><br />And what is this "plastic pipe" shooting up thing?<br /><br />You can sort of view the thermostat operation by running the engine on a flushette (garden hose). Look just above the cavitation plate to the rear of the lower unit.... there you will see a grouping of either holes or slots. These are the water outlet ports for the thermostat.<br /><br />On a cool engine, one that hasn't been run in a hour or so, obviously the thermostats should be completely closed. On a flushette, start the engine and pay particular attention to those holes or slots, whatever the case might be.<br /><br />There should be no water exiting those holes when you start the engine. As the engine warms up, a minute or so and reaching a temperture of 143° or higher, the thermostats open which allows water to exit those holes.<br /><br />If water exits those holes immediately after you start the engine, the thermostats are either jammed open or non-existent.

 

[Maraian]

Re: Am i being ripped off

Maty..... You state that the mechanic at the dealership "thinks" that a certain problem is caused by some component. He, apparently also suggested that the thermostats be removed from the engine.<br /><br />The above line of thought can lead you into bankruptcy. When having a engine checked out and repaired, if the problem isn't solved, returning the engine to the dealership to have the same problem resolved is called in the trade, a "ComeBack" in which the dealership absorbs the cost of labor.... in effect and in actuality the customer is not charged for the mechanics oversights/mistakes! However, one can not expect the dealership to absorb the cost of any extra parts that are needed, "unless" the mechanic's oversight resulted in the destruction of those parts.<br /><br />Note that the absence of thermostats will result in scored pistons and cylinder walls.<br /><br />Resurfacing of the cylinder heads is a touchy subject. Frankly I do not advise that route. If a cylinder head is warped, replace it. Removing too much head surface will result in too much compression, which in turn will lead to pre-ignition that will melt a piston (it happens).<br /><br />Any problem should be met head on with first a compression check..... 100+ psi and even on all cyls. Then, with the s/plugs removed, check the spark which should jump a 7/16" gap with a strong blue lightning like flame on all cylinders.<br /><br />If the above two tests check out okay, the most likely cause of your problem would be either fouled carburetors ( mostly clogged fixed high speed jets within the float bowl), improperly adjusted throttle/carburetor linkage, or a sticking timer base under the flywheel.<br /><br />The fact that the carburetors were cleaned does not mean that they are indeed clean. It is easy for some to overlook manually cleaning the brass fixed high speed jets for some reason.<br /><br />The timer base can be checked by having the engine in forward gear NOT RUNNING (spin the prop while shifting), then slowly have the throttle advanced while watching the timer base assy. The timer base should steadily advance slowly up against the black rubber stop on the spark advance screw. If the timer base sticks, the spark remains retarded. Keep us informed.

I recently discovered my cylinder head is warped in the middle between the two cylinders.
You said resurfacing can cause compression to be too high. Is there supposed to be a low spot between the two cylinders?
I am considering resurfacing, do know what the tolerances are for 2006 J15?

 

[GA_Boater]

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