1977 Johnson 115 HP 115EL77S Outboard Tilt Trim.. Need a Guru!

snapfx

Recruit
Joined
Jul 20, 2014
Messages
4
Hey Guys!

So i got this boat and have been having some issues with the tilt / trim.. I was doing some maintenance on the boat since only god knows when the last time things have been worked on...
Got into the Tilt / Trim System, Found that the Tilt cylinder was leaking from the top near the wiper... So i started to drain the fluid and noticed it was very milky... Figured the cylinder was letting water in somehow, so i got a rebuild kit for it, removed the cylinder from the system; removed the wiper cap, removed the rod / piston.. Installed all new orings on the piston / plunger, and on the wiper / cap.. Reinstalled everything, topped up the system with atf, bled the system as per the manual... throw the boat into the water and notice that the motor keeps dropping.. Also noticed on the Trim cylinder the sending unit was corroded off, so i just removed it and plugged the hole off (could that let the water into the system???)
The tilt / trim works fine until u actually start moving forward then it slowly drops.. I was doing some digging and found that theres more internals in that tilt cylinder.. looks like a rod down the middle of it; at the bottom.. How does that come out? Is there Serviceable Parts in it? Was looking at parts Diagrams (says its a relief) how do i pull it out?
Removed the Manual Relief from the valve body to see if there was some orings in / around there that could be causing the issue.. looks like theres only 1 oring that seals the head of the relief from the valve body.. replaced that just incase..
Kind of out of ideas.. I dont wanna throw a bunch of parts at this boat since things are very expensive.. Could it be the valve body screwed from the water in the system? The Relief Valve? How can i narrow it down..
Ps: this is a calco valve body / pump..
Thanks for your help in advance!
 

canuckmark

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
98
I have a similar (if not the same) system as yours on my 1977 Johnson 85hp - calco pump with trim/tilt cylinders on the outsides of the bracket. Also having "drop" issues. I'll tell you what I've done so far and what more I'm planning.

When I got the boat in 2012 the fluid was milky and very low, and it only raised partway. Did multiple flushes and got it working but it drops on its own at varying rates.

Did the full seal/wiper kit on both cylinders as I had fluid weeping at the top of the tilt cylinder. The sender nub on the trim cylinder was definitely leaking - when I took that apart there was a good quarter cup of water just sitting in that cylinder! So yes it can allow water in when the seal fails. I cleaned that out and sealed it off with a cap like you did. Also the sender bobbin had unglued and unwound itself so it came out too.

The relief valve you refer to in the tilt cylinder came out with a long socket and extensions and there is an o-ring on the bottom, but it was a PITA to get back in.

But doing the cylinders did not fix the dropping problem. The next thing I'm trying is the bypass screw on the pump - it is the one on the left, the relief is the one on the right. The bypass is frozen into the pump and the slot is carved up (like that when I got it), so a new screw is on its way from the OMC vintage warehouse. If your bypass screw is still OK, you may want to try replacing the o-rings on it. I also ordered and got a "head gasket kit" (also from the vintage warehouse) but since the pump is actually working it will be the last resort.

I needed to do the cylinders anyway but my theory is the problem is somewhere in the pump if BOTH trim and tilt are dropping. So that bypass screw or the pump are the next targets for repair. As for cost, even with all this it has still been much cheaper than buying a new pump (either original if you can find one or a newer retrofitted pump).

Please keep this thread updated if you get anywhere...I'm having a tough time getting help with this one too.
 

canuckmark

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
98
Update for you: replacing the bypass valve/screw made a big difference. It is still dropping on its own but much slower now. I had to replace the entire screw as the screwdriver slot on the old one was completely destroyed, but it may be possible to just do an o-ring on the end of the old one.
 

canuckmark

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Oct 26, 2012
Messages
98
Actually the bypass screw didn't work. Everything was fine in the garage, then I headed out to the water, ran around the bay a bit and for whatever reason it's right back to how it was before. Drops from full up to full down in minutes. There's just no reason for the difference...extremely frustrating. It will probably be the rebuild kit next.

As for the vintage warehouse, it is where any of the older new parts seem to be stored. My guess is when BRP bought OMC the oldest parts headed to some old warehouse to save space at the main depot. Everything is still ordered the same way either from a dealer or shop.evinrude.com , the only difference (at least for me) is the part takes 2 weeks by mail to get to my marine place as opposed to a couple days for current parts. At least BRP didn't throw out all the old parts.
 
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wadegcs

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Joined
Jul 23, 2014
Messages
8
I am working on the same system on a 1977 Johnson 115. Today I took the cylinders apart and figured out how everything works. But I noticed that when I pulled the plungers out there were o-rings with what looked like rings on an engine piston on each side of the o-ring. Somewhat flat and overlap just a tiny bit where the ends meet in the groove. They got damaged on the threads inside of the cylinder as I was removing the pistons and my concern is that they will get damaged going back in. I'm thinking that it's going to require something like the piston ring compression tool like one that is required to install pistons in an engine. Or maybe just a piece of paper around it to protect the o-ring and ring type seals as they pass the threads. Is this something either of you did? Was it even a problem or hard to push the pistons back into the cylinders? If not, then maybe those o-rings or ring seals got damaged going back in and allowing the oil to pass the pistons. It seems we are all in the same boat on this one without any real help from someone in the business with real experience. Any help is much appreciated.
 

Sifter

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Joined
Aug 19, 2014
Messages
6
I am working on a similar TnT unit for a Johnson 50 hp 1984. I've just opened up the cylinders and began cleaning out all the junk and crud inside. The fluid was milky and gray. It appears the trim cylinder (port side) had water inside as well. I ordered the Rebuild Kit - Evinrude Johnson 1972-1989 Tilt Trim cylinder seal 0172575 off Ebay. The o-rings for the cylinder cap were a good fit as is the dust cap for the shaft, but the other seals were not like the ones being replaced. I noticed the o-rings for the piston in the kit were not the same as the replaced seals. The old seals are like what wadecgs describes above with the 2 rings that sandwich a rubber o-ring. The replacement kit provided a single o-ring that was not so wide and there was too much slop side to side in the piston groove it sits in. Could the leak down you're describing be from the replacement seals not fitting tight in their groove?

I saw another post on a different site that showed how to reinstall the pistons using a pop can. In essence cut off the ends of the can and then cut down the side so, like the piece of paper concept referenced above, the can will be formed to become the piston sleeve that is used to hold the seals/rings in place while sliding the piston past the threads inside the top of the cylinder. Lube up the can with hydraulic oil first and slide the piston in. Hope this helps someone next time.

wadegcs - how did you get the pistons back in the cylinders - curious?

Has anyone ordered a seal replacement kit that comes with new seals that are just like the old ones on the pistons? I am looking for those now. The kit from Ebay listed above was only good for the top cap on the cylinder. I'm looking for the piston seals for both cylinders and the other seals in the trim cylinder.

Also need to get the trim internal mechanism apart to clean and inspect. Any trick to getting that apart? It looks like a spanner tool is needed to get that internal mechanism cap to screw off the body with the coil on it. Any clarity you care to share on the internal workings would be much appreciated.
 

wadegcs

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Joined
Jul 23, 2014
Messages
8
Sifter, I think I got the same seal kits from ebay too. The o-ring for the piston is just that, an o-ring and not like the original as you described. I put those o-rings supplied onto the piston and was able to push the piston back into the tube with some force and a little wiggle. I also used some very light grease made by GM called "Special Lubricant". I figured I needed to lube it but didn't want to use a heavy grease that may clog things up once in use. Careful, I pinched my finger on the second one once it went past the threads as it slammed all the way in very quickly. I don't think I would have attempted to install them that way with the original type of seals. I like what you said about using a soda can. Great idea! Will do that on my second set of cylinders that I am going to rebuild. That should keep the threads inside of the tube from damaging the seals. I hope the photo of the tools I post can be seen. I also just purchased a spanner tool from ebay but the pins were not the right size (1/4"). They are replaceable so maybe I can find the right size pins to fit the tool.
I found that one of the tools for a 4" angle grinder fit well but was not strong enough and bent when I tried to remove the caps. I made my own spanner by purchasing some tapered pins at the hardware store and cutting out a 3/16" flat bar. It worked enough for me to get the caps off.
As for the port cylinder with the resistor on it, I use a pipe wrench just above the resistor on the pipe nipple and the spanner wrench on the upper piston that is screwed onto it. Once it was unscrewed I found a fitting at the lower end of pistons rod which acts more like a stop. One of them unscrewed off the bottom and the other the upper Nut fitting unscrewed. It didn't matter to me which end came off as long as I could remove the cap to replace the seals. Never use a pipe wrench on the Piston shaft as this will create burrs in the shaft and cause the seals to fail prematurely. I notice one of my shaft had some small scaring probably from someone doing just this and I used emery cloth to clean it up. I have both cylinders reassembled and now working on the Pump/motor. Both of my pistons feel like they are making a good seal and pumping air really good as I work the pistons in and out.
 

Sifter

Cadet
Joined
Aug 19, 2014
Messages
6
No photos attached.

Next time check out a marine tool distributor for what they call the end cap tool. Saw it for about $55 specifically for OMC. Saw another post about tools here http://www.mcmaster.com, search pin spanners.

I still need to get the shaft out of the carrier pipe with the resistor/sender bobbin, it feels really crusty and gritty inside it when I move the shaft up and down. I was thinking about using a pipe wrench to hold it while I use the spanner wrench but I am soaking with PB blaster overnight first as the cap on the carrier pipe is pretty rusted. How does this whole carrier tube work anyhow? What are the key parts to watch and can I find a cap to put back in place of the sender assembly? That seems to be a place where water is entering the system. I can get by without the trim indicator.

Canuckmark, did you get an o-ring for the relief valve on the tilt cylinder in the kit you bought? I didn't get one with the kit I got off fleabay. What's the trick to replacing the o-ring on the relief valve? Is there only one? Besides the o-rings on the pistons and end caps, what other seals or o-rings are you replacing? I want to do this once while I have it apart. Also, any progress on the leak down solution?

Wadegcs, yeah I figured enough to keep away from using anything with teeth on the shaft. That surface needs to be smoooooth. Someone posted to use crocus cloth 1500-1800 on the shaft and not emery cloth. Never used it myself, but I thought it might be worth a try. Let us know how the pump motor goes, I'm still working on cylinders and finding the right o-rings for the pistons and one for the relief valve.
 

canuckmark

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Oct 26, 2012
Messages
98
OK, this is my third try to respond to this thread. This new forum software is just terrible...I've lost 4 paragraphs of typing twice now.

Sorry for the late reply sifter and wadegcs. Notifications on the new forum are hard to get used to.

I got my OMC seal sets from the dealer. The three-piece seal is called a t-ring, it was in its own baggie with a separate part number. My trim piston went fine but the tilt cylinder did chew up the top ring and the face of the rubber ring when pushing in. I found no good info on how to do it, compressing the rings as you mentioned made the most sense. I actually came up with the pop can idea on my own - it worked very well. Just don't go too deep with the pop can sleeve because it gets hard to remove if it is too far down. Get just past the threads.

The way I understand these pistons, those seals need to be the three piece style as a straight o-ring would move around too much. Don't know for sure, just what I've read.

I did get an o-ring for the relief but it may have been more trouble than worth. I got the post out with a long socket. Getting back in was harder - ended up using one of those long grabbie springy things from the dollar store to start it then tightened with the long socket. There is concern with damaging the top of the post though - i'd suggest doing the job without that seal. It wouldn't be too hard to pull the piston a second time after the fact if necessary.

Sifter, if the trim cylinder is full of muck in the bottom, your sender contact at the back is likely leaking. Mine actually had standing water in the bottom of the piston and the bobbin was just a handful of twisted wire. I took that all out and sealed the hole with a plug and sealer, then installed an external sensor on the engine bracket. Sorry, I dodn't remember how it came apart but I was able to figure it out as I went so it must have been straightforward.

Also, for disassembly of the pistons, I was able to get one apart with an adjustable/universal angle grinder wrench but the other wouldn't budge. I managed to go brute force with a big pipe wrench on the edge of the cap and it came loose. It only put a few small notches in the ring, a bit of filing fixed that.

If I missed anything please ask...if I can help I will...
 

canuckmark

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
98
After rereading your posts I wanted to add a few things.

The P/N for the complete kit is 174520 - this is the newest superseded number. 172575 is the original first-run number. This kit included the t-ring kit, but if you want to buy it separately its P/N is 122496.

Which pump do you guys have, the prestolite or the calco? My system still is not working and am facing trying to rebuild my calco pump next.
 

racerone

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
36,032
Ever think of adapting a Mercruiser / Mercury outboard trim pump and reservoir.---------This would be mounted inside the boat and could solve your problem.--------Little chance that water could leak into the motor and reservoir.
 

wadegcs

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Jul 23, 2014
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First...Canuckmark...I've had problems with the post and still haven't figured out how to post a photo or link...Second...I want to thank all of you for the valuable information

This is a site I ordered parts from..I hope ya'll can see the link... http://www.marineengine.com/parts/j...ufacturer=Johnson&section=Power+Tilt+And+Trim

I am working my second set of cylinders and this time I found the T type ring on ebay...I will try both sets on my boat once everything is done...

As for my pump, I have the Prestolite...It ran perfect but I took everything apart to clean it out. It only made sense when rebuilding the cylinders.
When removing the top cap of the motor be very careful not to break the brush wires. Also, their is a ball bearing at the top of the armature that will fall out. Lost mine but have a new one ordered along with new gaskets for the motor and o-ring for the pump to reservoir. Getting the armature back in while holding the brushes open is a bear....I used some bailing wire and bent a small hook on the end to snag the brush wire and bent it to go into the mounting hole in the cap....After getting the armature back into the end cap you can carefully remove the bailing wire to allow the brushes to make contact with the commutator.

Racerone...That Mercury pump idea is my back up plan should my pump fail and even if it works I may still opt for the Merc pump system inside the boat....It makes much more sense to get the Pump and motor out of the water...The issue is finding a hose with an end for the Merc pump at one end and the OMC cylinder fitting on the other end...My plan is to have a local hydraulic hose company make that up for me using the end that fits the cylinder since I have an extra with dry rotted hose. I have a 41 chevy with a ford rack and a GM pump...I brought them the fittings for both ends and they put a hose between them.

The way I see the system working is the tilt/trim cylinder on the starboard side Powers up and down the full length. Hydraulic pressure is applied to both the top and bottom of the cylinder (reason for hose above and below)......The Port cylinder is only a trim cylinder as the barrel portion with the resistor only travels under pressure for a short distance (tops out)...Then the rod continues upward but only tags along for the ride during the tilt operation after the resistor rod tops out and is only pressurised in the up direction.
 

canuckmark

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
98
Hi racerone...yes, I've thought of that very thing. New hydraulic lines to the interior and a new pump setup. Do you know of anyone who has done this?

Hi wadegcs...My guess is you cant post links to other selling sites because iboats sells parts too. I have ordered from here with great success (especially the way they ship to Canada). As for the pump, I have the calco and the brush issue when disassembling is very similar.

At this point I have done everything possible to fix this issue other than the pump unit itself. I got a "head gasket" rebuild kit from OMC, just have to gather up the courage to give that fix a shot. If that doesn't work, I'll be going the way racerone suggests. We're so shallow in my local lake (especially this time of the year onwards) that TnT is simply a necessity.
 

wadegcs

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Jul 23, 2014
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[No message]
 

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wadegcs

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Jul 23, 2014
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I just lost a whole post..even tried posting photos and links to no avail....so frustrating
 

wadegcs

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Jul 23, 2014
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Port Trim.gif Trying this again (fingers crossed)........This is the Trim only on the Port side...The tube with the resistor has the piston at the bottom that has the t-ring on it. This section will only travel so far during the trimming operation....Once it tops out the rod inside of it will continue upward just tagging along with the Tilt cylinder on the starboard side lifting/ tilting the motor the rest of the way...This way you have two cylinder/rams pushing upward at the same time during trimming operation and only one cylinder/ram continuing to push upward the rest of the way.

Canuckmark...I have 2 sets of cylinders..one set has the O-rings that I already built and waiting on the T-ring set to come in for the other cylinders...I will see if they will work with the O-rings as those are the first ones I will put back on. Also the idea of the Mercury pump that racerone mentioned is my back up plan and maybe I just might do it that way cause it makes more sense to have the motor and pump inside the boat and not in the water. The issue I think might arise is with the fitting on the end of the hose not fitting the upper fitting on the ram. If I go this route I plan to take the fitting ends with me to a hydraulic hose company that I deal with to custom make the hoses for me. For me I am attempting to build a set with the trim/tilt sender in working order, the other in this photo was a mess like yours and I dealt with it the same way.
 

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