Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

[stuie1982]

Hello,

New to this form but see there are loads of knowledgeable folks on here so hoping someone can help.

I have recently almost completed a project where I'm trying to make a good outboard out of 2 almost 100% identical ones. I have a 1974 135 and 1975 135 - as far as I can see the only difference is the carburettors and ignition coil being 12amp on the 1975 (I checked most of the part numbers and seem to be the same)

Anyway, I seem to have a couple of issues that I can see:

1. It will not fire up for the life of me, I have 140psi on all four, spark on all four with plugs out and I set the timing at WOT to 18 degrees (using Joe Reeves method) and I have fuel as I checked the carbs and can see the plugs get wet. I have also tried all the best practise starting methods with choke on full using the mechanical lever but not one fire.

To troubleshoot the above I checked the spark with plugs in but it seemed very week at best and never sparked on all four so I swapped out the Powerpack, timing base and 12amp stator with older 6amp and the same result, spark is week and often you cant see it at all, if I take the plugs out I get a good spark on all four. Logic would tell me that this means the stator is not got enough voltage but I have tried 2?? I tested the one I removed (12 amp) and it was 800 ohms, but the 6amp was the correct 600 ohms.

My question here is - what other component might cause this problem where it would seem there is not enough power coming from the stator with plugs in. I also tested the voltage coming from the stator (ignition side) and got 74v with a normal volt meter, I have not tested the peak voltage yet. To also note I have purchased a brand new battery with 800 cold starting amps and starter motor looks to be in a good nick, engine turns over reasonably fast but have no RPM meter to check what speed but from looking on the internet its not turning over slow.

2. Unsure if this is related (suspect I might have 2 issues). If I put the timing at idle position and turn it over I get no spark, If move the lever off idle by raising the start lever I suddenly get a good spark. Its as if the timing is moving out of range, I also tested this by leaving the remote with start leaver up and disconnecting the linkage to the timing but again, as soon as the timing is moved back to idle I get no spark, plugs in or plugs out.

My question here is - can the timing move out of range so it just stops sparking, if not what would cause this to happen?

As far as I could see the timing base has no adjustments, it just sits in place and is clamped down, maybe im wrong?

Hopefully someone can help.

Thanks

 

[F_R]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

You lost me when you said you are mixing and matching parts. I would think it SHOULD work, but I dunno. That system should throw a 7/16" spark with ease. Heck, they'll do a inch or more, but that is torturing the coils. My advice is get some peak voltage readings and go from there.

 

[xjdriver]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

Are you using an adjustable-gap spark tester? Set it at the prescribed distance, if the spark is good then you know whats going on. If you know you got good spark try spraying some premix in the carb throats, it should atleast backfire even if the timings off. Are you sure your not flooding it?

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

If the plugs are wet, you are getting fuel, so look for a spark issue. I like checking the timer base and the stator for voltage output. The original factory manuals usually only show resistance information specs. Have a look at this website: cdielectronics.com. They provide current day voltage output specs for these older units. For instance, with a special "peak reading" voltmeter, the stator should output between 150 and 400 volts. The timer base should output 0.6 volts. Both when at cranking rpm's. (250) Regarding only getting spark when you advance spark, I'd suspect that you have bad wire in the timer base harness. That it is "open" when at dead idle, then "closes" when the timer base is moved from dead idle. The timer base must be properly connected to the spark advance lever for proper movement and it will move between the normal idle position all the way to full advance at full throttle. It certainly is possible the stator has weak output-again you need to check it's actual voltage output with the correct type of meter.

 

[stuie1982]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

Hi,

Thanks for the comments guys.

F_E - I'm mixing and matching parts from two outboards to build a good one. Both outboards had various issues but from two I have made one good one. I replaced anything that was a must such as seals, rings, gaskets and impeller etc. The stator coil was one of the few things that was not identical. I will try to build a peak voltage meter today and see what I get.

xjdriver - I'm using the recommended plugs, they are new and have a set gap, no way to adjust. I will also try some premix but pretty sure the fuel is going in as when I was on the choke for a long time I could smell the fumes. I read its hard to flood and choke should be on 100% to get it started.

emdsapmgr - I will build a peak voltage meter and check the voltages out. I will also do some tests on the timer base for loose connections, seems like the most likely explanation apart from the fact the spark goes out on all four at the same time. Will see what I get, maybe I will try to rebuild with new wires etc. Do you know if you need to somehow set the gap between flywheel and sensors?

The other thing I noticed is that the flywheels have the same part number except one is stamped "D1" and other "D2" - they looks 100% identical apart from this, I wonder what it could mean. I will try both anyway.

Its really cold here (Scotland) just now so might take me a few attempts to do it all. Short burst of high speed action in the garage is about all I can cope with. lol

Thanks again.

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

The timer base rotates in a machined groove on the top of the engine. When manufactured, that groove was machined to maintain the correct spacing around the flywheel hub. No real adjustment required.

 

[xjdriver]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

I was talking about a spark tester like this Great Neck/Adjustable ignition spark tester (25069) | | AutoZone.com

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

I'm more familiar with the Stevens spark checker: Spark Checkers - KV Meter

 

[stuie1982]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

Hi!

I tested the peak voltage coming from the coil - 250volt so that's good I think.

I ordered a new timing base as well and I think I get a spark at any position now, I also got 4 new coils so the spark is very bright. I also bought a new rectifier basically because it was cheap and thought I might as well.

In order to get a spark this time I had to disconnect the kill switch from the power pack, the black and yellow wire. So I started troubleshooting that and after dismantling the remote and checking everything, even though I never fixed anything, it started getting a spark with the kill switch wire connected to the powerpack...obviously something fishy there I need to sort out. Suspect the ignition key assembly.

I noticed that if I tested the brown and yellow wire with it disconnected form the powerpack, by tested I mean I measured the resistance between it and ground with ignition on kill switch tag in place, It would give me an open circuit (as it should), if I removed the tag from the kill switch it gave me a closed circuit (again as it should) HOWEVER I noticed that if I did the same test with the battery disconnected I would get a 4k resistance reading where I should of had a open circuit (ignition on, kill switch tag in place)

Question now is - should I get a 4k reading with the battery disconnected? I thought it would be a simple circuit that should not require power to work?

Any help would be most welcome.

Thanks

 

[stuie1982]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

Hello, update to my post is that I have removed the key switch and in the on position and start position I have a 20k resistance over the 2 "M" terminals, if I switch off I get a closed circuit (0 ohms) but in the on position or start I get a variable resistance of 20-30k instead of a open circuit.

Does anyone know if this is normal? Surly not I'm thinking but just want to check before I buy a new key switch.

Thanks

 

[Bosunsmate]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

You shouldnt get a thing on that when its open as it would ground the kill wire.

 

[stuie1982]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

Hello,

Thanks for the reply. I dismantled (distroying in the process) the key switch to find grease and water so bingo, I'm hoping this has been the big problem causing all the random issues.

Will order a new switch tonight.

Cheers

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

Common for key swtiches to get rainwater in them and then transfer current to the wrong terminals inside. Also, a common sourch for fires. Good that you found the problem!

 

[V153]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

Yup! If unsure of the switch's age or condition, replace it. Cheap insurance.

I've had them refuse to shut the motor off before. Once even after pulling the 'kill switch' lanyard.

Buddy of mine caught one trying to start itself one damp night.

 

[stuie1982]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

Hello again,

Well....im almost there! It fired up nicely however as it goes to start and the bendix kicks down and the starter just spins with bendix down, I then have to release the key and try again but it just keeps happening. Almost starts and then the bendix kicks down.

I tried my spare starter but did the same thing but a little worse.

The battery had a good charge in it I think and its just new, it has a green indicator on it and it was showing green.

Anyway, im charging it overnight in the case its a low battery but does anyone have any other suggestions?

I would have thought the bendix should just stay at the top so long as I have the key turned?

I was thinking ill overhall it if its still doing it tomorrow.

Cheers

 

[Bosunsmate]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

Anyway, im charging it overnight in the case its a low battery but does anyone have any other suggestions?

I would have thought the bendix should just stay at the top so long as I have the key turned?

.

Cheers

Yes it should.
Try jumping it directly. It may be a bad battery, a worn solenoid connection or a bad ground or +ve cabling

 

[stuie1982]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

Thanks for the reply. So I tried the following:

Swapped solenoid
Cleaned earth and mounted to starter motor
Cleaned battery terminals
Cleaned and checked brushes in starter motor - in very good nick
Sanded the plate down that the brushes push against so it was smooth
Chopped a bit off the bendix return spring to make it easier for bendix to come up
Charged battery for 2 hours (will do a full charge tonight)

All of the above seemed to make a little difference as it fired up once with great puffs of smoke, guessing due to the rebuild although I stopped it.

Will see what difference a full charge makes.

What sort of cold cranking amps do I need - maybe the battery is too small? I have 77ah car battery with 720 cold starting amps.

Is the time out for logon crazy on this site or am im being slow?

Thanks

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

The original factory spec for a battery wasn't much: 12 volt, 70 amp hour rating or higher, minimum 2 minutes cold start capacity at 300 amps discharge, zero degrees fahrenheit and 10 second voltage reading of 7.5 volts. Your proposed battery should easily handle this engine, but you might want to have it "load tested" at your local auto parts store, just to make sure you don't have a bad cell.

 

[stuie1982]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

Hello,

Well with the battery fully charged it was cranking at very good speed but the bendix just jumps down again as soon as the outboard goes to start so I measured the voltage at the starter motor while it was cranking and i'm getting 10.5 volts so guess this is more than enough to push the bendix up so am I right in thinking it has to be a faulty starter motor? Strange as it looked good inside, maybe one of the brushes is disconnected. I will check again.

On another note it started today and i had it running for a few mins but it was up and down and would eventually stop - very erratic but as far as i could see running OK. LOTS of black smoke and when i looked at the plugs they had black oily gas on them. I suspect its just running rough as its pulling all the oil + WD40 through from the rebuild so just need to get a sustained run on the water to clear it.

I was not very sure if it was pumping fuel as every time i pumped the bulb i could hear it filling the carbs again. Can someone advise how the fuel pump should be connected, is it the nipple just below the bottom carb on the intake manifold (pointing towards the boat) that i should connect to the smaller nipple on the back of the fuel pump (pointing down)?

Its confusing as there is a nipple on the back of air intake manifold (pointing to the rear) just below the carb as well, not sure where this is meant to go?

I tried to look at the service manual but its not very clear at all.

Thanks

 

[F_R]

Re: Evinrude 135hp 1975 Ignition Issues

The carburetor silencer and intake manifold are connected by a hose between two nipples. All that does is pipe any dribbles from the carburetors into the intake so it gets burned. Has nothing to do with the way the motor runs (or doesn't).

EDIT: Your previous post indicates you are still using those dang surface gap spark plugs. Granted, it should run on those, but QL77JC4 will work better. Most of these grey hairs on my head developed while trying to make surface gaps run.