johnson tilt and trim problem

randlang

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1992 johnson 120 tilt cylinder works fine trim cylinders wont do anything .
 
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boobie

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Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

Have you checked the oil level in it ??
 

randlang

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Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

yea oil is ok i took the whole t&t unit off to replace the motor . replaced motor and have it lying on work bench and trim rams are extended and will not retract. when i push them in by hand and push the up button they go up and then the tilt cylinder extends then when i go down all that moves is the tilt the trim rams stay out.
 

tlocus73

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Aug 18, 2008
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Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

Not sure if this will help you out but make sure the manual release screw is good and tight.
A friend had some wierd TNT problems and ended up being the manual release screw which was a little bit loose..

t
 
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randlang

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Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

thanks tlocus73 i will check that this morning .:confused:
 

randlang

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Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

i checked manual release and it seems to be tight . so maybe ill just have to buy whole new t&t unit .
 

cptdan

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Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

Depends on how brave you are when it comes to the hydraulics. Being a mid 80s unit it might be contaminated or sludge build up. I've work on a my fair share of these and complained the whole way through. The problem is that the cost of labor quickly outweighs the price of of replacement so most shops won't do much outside of replacing a motor.
With that said you can try the following. A basic outline..... Skill level of 7 on a scale of 10
1. Remove the complete trim assembly from the motor. This can take a bit of time in itself but winter is almost here and time is available. Safety is important here so you don't lose a finger or get injured. Shore the engine all the way up to facilitate removal.
2. With something to catch old fluid, besides your clothes and the floor, remove the pump assembly from the motor.
There should be clean oil but if you have a oily goo on the pump valve body you probably have found the problem.
3. Dip the valve body in clean kerosene and operate the valve body pump with a had screwdriver to clean the old garbage out. I recommend not removing the 4 bolts to separate the valve body because of small bearing balls (usually 4) and two springs one is rather hefty.
4. Once you confident it has been cleaned lightly blow is out with air. Set it on the work bench and fill all the openings you see with wd40. Using a screwdriver slowly turn the gear and you should see fluid well up out of one hole, turn the opposite direction you will see fluid well up out of the the other. Then hydrate your valve body with trim fluid and set aside.
5. Remove each hydraulic line individually and blow them out with air.
6. With your hand push and then pull each cylinder to expel the oil in it.
7. Reassemble everything. ( I use my iPhone to take pics as i take things apart to ensure I don't forget how to get them back together) All cylinder should be down at this point
8. When putting the pump back on the motor, ensure the valve body gear and motor shafts are aligned cause it will grind it up quickly.
Still working on your bench...
9. Once everything is reassembled orient your system so you can pour and over fill with oil. (this will save time when re priming the system. Operate it on the bench with the vent (bypass screw open about 2 turns.) Run until you hear the oil flowing. note you probably wont see ram movement at this point.
10. Close the vent screw and crack open the fill screw in the reservoir to relieve pressure. Cycle up and down 3 or 4 time. but don't load the motor excessively. if is sounds overloaded then remove the fill screw and let the oil seek its level.

Argh. Yea by this time you look like you went swimming in oil

11. Reinstall your system on outboard motor and test.

If you still don't have proper operation then a new valve body is probably in order. Funny things they should only cost $50 but you'll pay between $300 and $600 to get a new one and at this point you might want to consider your time and factor it into your price of just replacing the whole thing. Not mentioned here is the seals on each cylinder could be leaking by.

The above will take a first time about 2 days. If you have done it before or your mechanically savvy then about 6 - 8 hours. My shop here in depression ville USA I only charge 2 hours to do it and usually will only take the on in the winter. Documentation? Valve body schematics and specs seem to be a secret. The military should take notes on how the manufactures of these valve bodies keep the knowledge a secret.

GOOD LUCK Grasshopper.
 

reiddo1

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Jan 17, 2012
Messages
166
Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

I believe if your tilt trim is like my 2000, it uses the contracting force of the main tilt ram to contract the trim rams. The trim rams are single acting and rely on the main tilt ram and or engine weight to contract them. Hope this helps.
 

RRitt

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Mar 30, 2006
Messages
3,319
Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

trim cylinders don't lower until
a) the weight of the engine is pushing down on them
or
b) the tilt cylinder is fully retracted
 

cptdan

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Aug 26, 2013
Messages
5
Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

Yes the engines weight does assist in lowering your outboard but the cylinder has oil on both sides of the piston. The pump extract the fluid allowing it to lower.
Cheers
 

RRitt

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Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

trim hydraulics have fluid both above and below the piston. Oil is pumped in from above to retract the shafts. The electric motor reverses direction and fluid is pumped in below the piston to raise. All three pistons are connected to the same pump and receive the same oil pressures. Whichever piston you push down on will fully lower before the others move. If you do not have anything hooked up, then the piston with the least friction (tilt cylinder) will lower first.

in the real world, tilt piston lowers first because engine is pushing down on it. about 2/3 way down, the engine lands on your trim pistons and all three retract in unison. The pump does not have any built in preference to lower one piston or another.
 

Joe Reeves

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Feb 24, 2002
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13,262
Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

The PTT unit is self bleeding... do not be concerned about that unless an air lock is encountered (electric motor works... nothing happens).

The PTT unit must be in the upright posiiton, such as it would be when the engine is underway. It will not function properly in any other position.

The PTT fluid refill procedure is: Both the tilt cylinder rod and the trim rams must be fully extended. Fill the reservoir to overflowing. Operate the PTT unit up/down a few times. Repeat the fill procedure until no more fluid can be added. Reinstall the reservoir fill screw plug after each fill procedure, otherwise the fluid will escape when the PTT unit is engaged.

When the unit is installed on the engine:

In the UP mode, the Trim Rams are engaged first via hydraulic pressure until the engine is moved back/up a full 15 degrees, after which hydraulic pressure is applied to the bottom of the Tilt Cylinder.

In the DOWN mode, The Tilt Cylinder rod moves first BUT NOT via hydraulic pressure. Rather it lowers due to the weight of the engine forcing it down via geavity. Should the steer tube nuts be too tight OR corrosion exists at the steering tube which would cause a binding effect on the swivel/steering bracket... the Trim rams would pull in first, then hydraulic pressure would force the Tilt cylinder rod to lower.

When the unit is off the engine, sitting on the work bench:

In either mode, UP or DOWN, which moves first, the Tilt Cylinder Rod or the Trim Rams, is a toss up UNLESS you hold downward pressure on the Tilt Rod.

PTT_HYDRAULICS-2_zps1a60ee27.jpg


PTT_HYDRAULICS-1_zps6854a38f.jpg
 

pagz

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Nov 12, 2013
Messages
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Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

yea oil is ok i took the whole t&t unit off to replace the motor . replaced motor and have it lying on work bench and trim rams are extended and will not retract. when i push them in by hand and push the up button they go up and then the tilt cylinder extends then when i go down all that moves is the tilt the trim rams stay out.

I am having the same problem after taking the motor off to replace the filter and O ring. The tilt ram works good but when the engine hits the trim rams it lowers very slowly. It should take about 15 seconds to trim all the way in and it takes about 2 minutes. I think the tilt ram is doing all the work and the trim rams are resisting compression. My mechanic believes that I may have lost one of the check balls in one of the 4 check valves that are visible when you lift the motor off the valve body. He says there are what appears to be 4 valves and only 3 have balls in them. Are there supposed to be 4 check valve balls? If one is missing would it cause this problem? If there are supposed to be 4 balls where can I find a replacement? None of the schematics or parts lists show these check valve balls.
 
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pagz

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Nov 12, 2013
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Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

pagz.... And the engine is?
PTT from 1993 J200TZATS - It is a Fast Track on a 1993 200 HP. PTT works great going up and the tilt works great coming down until it hits the trim rams. Then it is like the tilt ram is slowly forcing the trim rams down which are resisting the pressure. like the hydraulic fluid in the trim cylinders is not flowing properly. The unit worked fine before I replaced the filter and O ring between the motor and valve body.
 
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Joe Reeves

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Feb 24, 2002
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13,262
Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

If all you did was to replace that round filter that sits on top of the oil pump and the sealing O Ring of the electric motor, nothing you did there could have caused your present problem. Did you take anything else apart?
 

RRitt

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3,319
Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

yea oil is ok i took the whole t&t unit off to replace the motor . replaced motor and have it lying on work bench and trim rams are extended and will not retract. when i push them in by hand and push the up button they go up and then the tilt cylinder extends then when i go down all that moves is the tilt the trim rams stay out.

i'm at a loss to understand how a person could push the trim rams in by hand with the manual release closed.
 
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pagz

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Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

If all you did was to replace that round filter that sits on top of the oil pump and the sealing O Ring of the electric motor, nothing you did there could have caused your present problem. Did you take anything else apart?

Joe...Thanks for the reply. Yes, I can tell you what I did but not sure what the mechanic did. The unit was working fine but the seal on the tilt ram was leaking so I decided I would replace it. I purchased a seal and O ring kit for the unit and proceeded to make the repair. I removed the PTT from the boat, removed the tilt ram and replaced the seal as well as the O rings on the cap and piston. I was careful to ensure that the springs and check valve balls in the piston stayed in place when I removed and reinstalled the piston on to the ram shaft. As long as it was off and easy to do replaced the filter and O ring between the valve body and electric pump motor. I never touched the trim rams or the bypass screw as it is frozen in the closed position. I put it back together filled it up with oil and installed it on the boat. It would raise the engine but would not hold in any position except for full up and when full up if I just engaged the down switch for a fraction of a second the PTT would lose its hold and slowly lower all the way down. I bled the air out and continued to top off until full but it still would not hold. I took it back off and noticed that I could extend and compress the tilt ram manually by hand and knew something did not go back together right.

I was running out of time and decided to drop it off at a local shop. The mechanic got the tilt ram working properly (I suspect that I had reversed the cap and piston O rings which was allowing fluid to bypass the piston but the mechanic could not tell me what they had done to fix that problem. He said that on the bench the trim rams do not contract which he believed should (I do not agree after reading this post) and thought it was a check valve ball missing in the Valve Body. I took it back, put it on the boat, bled and refilled it and all is working well except for the problem described above. It is as if the fluid in the lower section of the trim cylinders can not escape freely and the tilt cylinder is slowly pushing the oil out through a valve that is not opening completely. The trim rams extend properly but will not contract easily. So it is likely that he got into the valve body deeper than I did and may have done something that is causing the trim problem I am having now. He said something in the valve body was in upside down but as I recall the only thing in the top of the VB that I touched was the filter and it can only go in one way so maybe he opened it up further and flipped something he should not have.
 

RRitt

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Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

you did not remove or loosen the gearcase in any way? you did not open up either of the trim rams in any way? you did not loosen or remove the manual release valve?

and now the tilt ram falls rapidly from almost every angle?

Tilt piston rings are surprisingly forgiving and durable. Much more than the brake caliper seals on your car. It is doubtful that the piston ring could bad and then the mechanics at shop not notice.

So ... the usual suspects.
my first guess would be the seal between piston and piston shaft is bleeding. If so, then the system falls slowly. very slowly. 5minutes to a few hours from full up to full down.

my second guess would be the balls and springs in piston. Something not seated or sealing. If so, the system would fall modestly. 10-90 seconds from full up to full down.

If it is a piston ring blown out then the pump usually struggles to move fluid as fast as it leaks through. Such a system usually raises about 1/3 way and then needs help lifting. Once you turn off switch and let go the engine falls like a stone.
 

pagz

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Nov 12, 2013
Messages
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Re: johnson tilt and trim problem

Hi RRitt, thanks for helping out. I apologize but I think I may have mislead you when I said 'I took it back, put it on the boat, bled and refilled it and all is working well except for the problem described above.' What I meant was above in my previous post re trim issue. The Tilt issue is resolved. The answer to your first 3 questions is No. I did not do any of those things and the problem with the Tilt not holding has been fixed. I do not know how but I suspect I had the O rings reversed between the cap and the piston and fluid was just passing around the piston. One was a but thicker and I think I put that one on the cap when it should have gone on the piston. Not sure if the shop reversed them to fix that problem but Tilt wise the PTT seems to work perfectly and holds well in any position.

The problem I am having now is with the trim. When the motor contacts the trim rams and I continue to hold the switch in the down position it trims down very slowly. I know that the trim operation is much slower that the tilt but it is now taking 2 to 3 minutes of constantly running the pump to get it from where it contacts the trim rams to fully trimmed down. It is as if the fluid in the lower section of the trim cylinders can not escape freely and the force of the tilt cylinder pulling down on the engine is slowly pushing down on the trim rams forcing the oil out of the bottom of the trim cylinders through a valve that is not opening completely. Everything else, Trim up, Tilt up, Tilt down and Holding in any position seems to be working as expected. It is only Trimming down that is an issue.
 
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