Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

[Vin58]

I'm helping my neighbor with his no-start 1998 Johnson 50hp 3cyl outboard. I'm pretty good with 4 strokes but have very little experience with 2 strokes. We replaced the stator back in August because with ohmmeter we were reading open at brown to brown/yellow. (didn't have dva adapter at that time). Still no spark. Then we replaced power pack because the trigger seemed to be putting out voltage using a Fluke meter on ac and just took a guess that the trigger was functioning.
New power pack,still no spark. So we figured we'd go with the trigger because,what else is left. We did eliminate the kill circuit and rectifier as possible causes early into this. Well we just got the new trigger and a dva adapter just in case.Installed new CDI trigger and guess what? Still no spark! Took reading using the dva, and checking the individual trigger coil outputs (white to Purple,blue and green).:grumpy: I had 0 volts with connector disconnected and 5 volts or less with connector connected (should be 100v+). White to white/black read 0 volts connected or disconnected. Old trigger and new trigger are both reading about 300k ohm although CDI literature says it should be 1M ohm to 2.4M ohm using a Fluke Meter.
Flywheel looks good with the 6 stator magnets in tact and in place. The only thing left is the trigger magnets that are pressed into the flywheel. Not sure but there appears to be 2 magnets and they do display magnetic attraction.
More test results: Brown to brown/yellow is 214v connected and 250 v disconnected. Orange to Orange/black is 14v connected and 42v disconnected. The power pack resistance readings are right in line with CDI specs. Unless I got a defective trigger, I'm out of options, I think. Is there some way to be sure the trigger magnets are ok? I also removed spark plugs to take away any loading on the ignition and give me a higher cranking rpm.
Any other suggestions would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!
Thanks! Vince

 

[schematic]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

I had 0 volts with connector disconnected.

Did you connect to the trigger side or pack side when you got 0v?
Were you using a DVA and was cranking?

 

[Vin58]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

Did you connect to the trigger side or pack side when you got 0v?
Were you using a DVA and was cranking?

I checked the trigger with connector to pack disconnected on trigger side using a DVA and Fluke DVM. All 3 triggers produced 0 volts. I also did voltage test with trigger connected to pack and only saw 5 volts or less. I took these readings as suggested in CDI Electronics troubleshooting literature. CDI says I should see .6 volts with trigger disconnected from pack and 100+ volts when connected to pack. Using DVA with voltmeter set for DC. I even tried removing the spark plugs to increase cranking rpm to no avail. I don't know what else to do. Is it possible that the magnets that excite the trigger coils in the flywheel are bad? and thanks for the response!

 

[multimech]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

Yes it is possible the magnets are too weak, very unlikely though. I have never seen that short of them being wiped off the flywheel by hitting the stator.

If you have all new components and your tests are correct, you don't have the readings you need from trigger if I read your post correctly. So either the magnets in the center of the flywheel, yes there are magnets for the triggers as well, are gone or your trigger is shorted out, or not wound correctly or you did the test wrong.

A more likely scenario is that you are chasing ghosts (not your fault, it is easy to get confused) and something is either grounded (a wire hung up under a bolt for instance) or not grounded, like the power pack itself or the place where the pack is grounded (not grounded itself, those packs are on a bracket if I am not mistaken) or the kill wire in the wire harness is grounded (bad harness) although you say you got rid of that part. How did you do that? disconnect that wire only from the power pack?

 

[clanton]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

The first thing you need to know is model number of engine, and if equipt with QUICK START timer.

Charge coil specs all models, 250 volts with peak reading meter at cranking RPMs.
Timer sensor spec Quick Start model 1.5 volts with a peak reading meter. Quick Start has 2 sets of 3 sensors, I set tested with black meter lead to Terminal E. I have to know how many terminals and letter of each terminal to explain how to test the second set.
Timer sensor spec non Quick Start model, 0.3 volts with a peak read reading meter

 

[clanton]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

Ohms testing has different specs for different meters.

Power pack output voltage to primary side of ignition coil, 190 volts or higher, sparkplug wires connected to plugs or gap tester.
,
The first item on the troubleshooting chart is the stop circuit

 

[schematic]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

CDI says I should see .6 volts with trigger disconnected from pack and 100+ volts when connected to pack. Using DVA with voltmeter set for DC. I even tried removing the spark plugs to increase cranking rpm to no avail. I don't know what else to do. Is it possible that the magnets that excite the trigger coils in the flywheel are bad? and thanks for the response!

You absolutely need .6 volt minimum on the trigger test when disconnected. If this is 0v you have islolated the problem.

Were you on the DC scale on the fluke and on auto-voltage ?

 

[Vin58]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

You absolutely need .6 volt minimum on the trigger test when disconnected. If this is 0v you have islolated the problem.

Were you on the DC scale on the fluke and on auto-voltage ?

Thanks for replies! The engine model# is E50DTLECA
(1997). For clarification; To be sure cause is not kill circuit grounded, I clip my test light to battery plus and probe kill wire(blk/yel) at pack connector and look for no light.
- Underside of flywheel has 6 outer magnets that I assume are for stator and inner magnets for trigger.
I checked output of trigger with DVA and Fluke DVM in DC mode.
First I checked with new trigger disconnected from pack which I believe isolates test to the trigger only. According to CDI's test specs, should see .6v using DVA. I'm getting 0v even when set DVM range to millivolts.
-Stator readings are all in spec.
-Resistance readings on original trigger and new trigger are much lower than CDI's specs. 300k ohm on each of the 3 trigger coils. CDI SAYS 1M to 2.4M.

 

[clanton]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

How are you connection the leads to check the sensor output? Black lead to terminal E, alternately red lead to terminal A, B, and C. Your timer should make 1.5 volts. OEM service specs. Ohms test for same terminals using Fluke 20 series 11 meter is 900+-50. Ohms between terminals E and D is 450+-50, using the Fluke 29.

 

[schematic]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

First I checked with new trigger disconnected from pack which I believe isolates test to the trigger only. According to CDI's test specs, should see .6v using DVA. I'm getting 0v even when set DVM range to millivolts.

Flywheel is installed when taking readings......right?

 

[seahorse5]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

How fast is the flywheel turning over?

Most magneto powered CDI systems require about 350 rpm

 

[Vin58]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

I just talked to a CDI tech and he told me that if the pack is getting 11 to 22 volts from stator on orange pair,the pack should be sending 6 to 10 volts to trigger on the white and black pair. I had 14 volts from stator and 0 volts to trigger. He said I probably got a bad pack. I'm going to retest.
He also said with key on and not cranking there should not be more than 2 to 12 volts on the kill wire, black/yellow.

 

[clanton]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

If you are checking voltage, the flywheel must be installed and turning. I believe the black/yellow wire should be 0 voltage with key on engine off. I am reading the specs from an OEM manual, they differ from what CDI says, these different specs may be making this harder then it should be. I`m done.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

I have always heard, but I have not verified it myself, that ANY VOLTAGE applied to the black yellow kill wire will fry the pack. You stated that you clipped the test light to the positive of the battery, and probed the black/yellow looking for a no light condition. I know what you were doing.... checking for a grounded black/yellow, I know. But, you also inadvertently applied 12vDC to the black/yellow thru the bulb, which has a relatively low resistance when cold. If applying ANY VOLTAGE to the black/yellow will fry the pack, you may have done just that.

 

[Vin58]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

Clanton,voltage checks were done with flywheel on and engine cranking.
Daselbee,test light check done at pack connector disconnected and taken on harness side.

 

[multimech]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

I think you are confused to say the least

"the pack should be sending 6 to 10 volts to trigger on the white and black pair. I had 14 volts from stator and 0 volts to trigger."

For starters, the pack does not send a signal to the triggers. They send a signal to the pack to operate the silicone switches inside of it. They control timing. 14 volts from the stator? Really? That wouldn't power the ignition, it stores energy from the stator and releases it when the triggers tell it to. That is the basics of the Capacitor Discharge Ignition. Your readings are off by a large margin.

The test you did on the kill wire is useless. If you had it disconnected from the pack it does not matter if it is grounded or not, it will not kill the ignition.

I suggest you take this to a shop instead of replacing already replaced parts to try and troubleshoot it. It gets very expensive very quickly.

I don't intend to sound impatient. However, today I had a customer that swore he had gone through the carbs on his 50 HP. After talking to him and reassuring him I meant no disrespect I got the Ok to check the carbs. He is now named "Mr. Backwards" he totally screwed up the rebuilds and that is the reason his engine will not idle.

You don't seem to understand the basic functions of this system and I think all of your tests are not going to help you unless you do. I am more than willing to help, provided you slow down, give specs and take information that will help you.

 

[schematic]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

I think you are confused to say the least


For starters, the pack does not send a signal to the triggers. They send a signal to the pack to operate the silicone switches inside of it. They control timing. 14 volts from the stator? Really? That wouldn't power the ignition, it stores energy from the stator and releases it when the triggers tell it to. That is the basics of the Capacitor Discharge Ignition. Your readings are off by a large margin.

mm, careful on this system. The pack does signal the trigger when altered timing is requested for "quick start"
There is substantial electronics built into the timer (trigger).


just sayin....

 

[Vin58]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

Multimech, couldn't agree with you more and I thank you for your help. I was just isolating the black/yellow kill wire coming from ignition switch to make sure it wasn't grounded. Since I was not getting any voltage from trigger (white to purple,blue and green) using DVA with trigger connected or disconnected I called CDI. The tech told me the white and black wires needs to have 6 to 10 volts from pack to trigger in order for trigger coils (purple,blue and green) to create timer voltage for pack. I rechecked and now waiting for new pack. Any advice or direction would be appreciated! Thank You.

Thanks Schematic. I'm just not getting any trigger signal and have no idea why except for what CDI told me above.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

Yes, it is true that the pack supplies voltage TO the trigger in order to power up the electronics inside the trigger. There are very sensitive SCR's inside the trigger as well as circuitry to alter timing when in Quickstart mode. Not sure of the trigger voltage value that you are trying to detect, BUT....Vin....you using a homemade DVA adapter? If so, those can be problematic when trying to read low trigger signals. Some trigger signals are in the range of 0.6v DVA. But there is a diode in the homemade DVA circuit. Those diodes typically need 0.7v to forward bias and turn ON. So, depending on the trigger voltage, the diode characteristics, etc, you may not have enough trigger signal to even turn the DVA diode ON, therefore ....no reading.

 

[Vin58]

Re: Replaced stator, power pack, trigger and still no spark

Daselbee, then if the pack is not suppying the trigger with voltage on the white and black wire the trigger will not work? And therefore the pack is probably bad?