What's Wrong?

drmagnum

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Jun 9, 2010
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I have had similar symptoms with my 1990 90 HP Evinrude.
engine has sat up for several years,pulled and rebuilt carbs w/new kits,all new fuel lines,new impeller,gearcase lube,engine cranked but had to push in choke regularly to keep running,cleaned fuel pump,re-cleaned carbs but still have to push choke to keep running,was able to get boat on plane and engine ran good but as i slowed down engine would die.
Last two years just like above except I didn't rebuild the carbs. It ran well enough when opened up and I had to idle a little high around the harbor.
But mine wouldn't even start this year. Just a short run and die right away. What I mean by a short run is maybe enough to rotate the flywheel two or three times. I got a hard bulb, new gas and oil and spark all around. Did the WOT timing check as in the secret pages. all good.
Tear down of the carbs has shown me that the, I am assuming this is the main jets I am looking at, main jets and fuel feed tube have some sort of fuel sealant around it. Then the top plate has the same sealant and it seems to have broken down and pieces of the sealant are blocking the four jets that the two tubes feed their gas to. No gaskets on the top plates.
I cleaned all of this sealant type stuff up and made gaskets for the top plates. I used thin copper wire to make sure the tube is clear and the valve that lets gas in at the float. All jets are now unplugged. It is late here and I need to go to work in the morning so I will post tomorrow what the outcome is.
Did I mention plugs were only wet with what looked to me the fog oil I used to pack it up with for winter.
 
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drmagnum

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OK thank you for moving this out of the old post.
The above under lined is from an old post on this site and not mine. I was only relating to this post because my engine was acting in a very similar way before I winterized it.
I am late getting the boat out to use it this year because of life catching up with me. Now is as good a time as any and it still wont start. I would hate to put in in the lake and end up with a dead battery and boat. I am trying to just get it to start on the flush cuffs at my house.

I finished getting the carbs back together and on the power head. I made new gaskets and paid close attention to the "L" shaped cutouts for the top plates. Now still not starting. I got gas on the plugs at least now and lots of smoke while holding down the choke to start it. When I let off the choke and wind it for a while I get a little more action. but only fires for a revolution or two and dies. I have good compression. I am thinking it may be the old plugs. I get some new ones tomorrow. I did an OHM test of the coils and one didn't seem to be as well grounded as the rest. the spark was still jumping the 7/16 spark tester gap. I will give the mounts for these coils a good cleaning.
A little more about my engine. It is a 1990 90 HP Evinrude. It was a VRO but no longer. It now has a old style pump on the block and I mix the gas 50/1 in a can on the ground first then pour it into the boats tank. There was some gas in it and I am sure it has past its life of the stabilizer that I added when I winterized it. I just doubled it up with fresh gas in the boat tank and that may be part of the problem starting it. I have a separate small tank, three gallons, I can use this with only fresh gas to see if it is just the gas.(I keep it in the boat for a back up in case I don't pay enough attention and run it dry)
I am sure the reason my plugs were dry yesterday was because of the sealant I found in the carbs blocking the jets. They should be all set now beacuse I sprayed them clean and made gaskets to replace the clear sealant the was degraded and blocking thejets up. I used a good quality rubberized gasket material rated for gas. I also loaded up pictures of manufactured gaskets and noticed they had an "L" shaped channel to allow the gas to be supplied to the two sets of jets in the top of each carb.
 

drmagnum

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Today I got new plugs and new fuel.( I even found some without ethanol) Still no start. and the plugs are dry this time. I tested the ball valve at the hookup good to go(GTG) Then tested to make sure fuel is making it out of the pump. GTG not sure how much pressure is needed. I pulled the drain plug from the port side top carb and a slow drizzle of fuel came out. I think not enough fuel is making it into the bowl. I will pull them back off in the morning. I will look to see why I am not getting fuel into the bowl or at least it should have more in the bowl when I open up the drain. I hope this isn't going to take the rest my my summer to figure out. Short boating seasons here in northern New England. I know I need fuel, air(pressure/vacuum) and spark for it to run. Right now it looks like it needs more fuel.
 

drmagnum

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I did pull the hose off the primer/choke turned it to the winterize fog position and squeezed the bulb causing fuel to squirt out of the primer/choke to make sure fuel was making it to that device. GTG
 

drmagnum

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I found the discussion about the air leaks in the fuel system. I will test the pump and the carb for air leaks in the morning also.
 

drmagnum

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I have a huge air leak in my pump. I have ordered rebuild kits for the pump and the carbs. I will try to seal them up today so I might get back on the lake while I am waiting for the kits to come in.
 

drmagnum

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I sealed up the pump. Tried starting the engine and nothing. Checked plugs and they are wet this time. I pulled carbs again and checked float levels. They were high. I set them level. Tried it again still no start. I am about at my wits end here. I tried starting it without the primer/choke after it sat for a few hours. Then tried it with the primer/choke. Nothing. I am let down now. I am going to be not bringing my boat to the lake this weekend. Think I will go back to square one with checking the spark in all cylinders again and basic trouble shooting. To sum it up, I have new plugs and spark jumped 7/16 gap and blue on my tester when I tested it a couple days ago. I read about 125 lbs. pressure in each cylinder after 4 revolutions. I sealed my pump and only tested it for leaks.(maybe it is not pumping I will retest it in the morning) I have new gas and oil(even no ethanol gas) I did find a hole in the primer hose this last time I was putting the carbs back on and repaired that. I think that may have come from when I removed the carbs the second time and pinched it in the mount for the primer/choke while re installing it. I have new gaskets, I made them and checked for a good seal, on the tops of the carbs due to there wasn't any gaskets before and only some kind of sealant was there and it was clogging the top two sets of jets. I did remove the sealant from the tube that suppies those two top jets. The sealant was on the inside of the carb mouth circling around the top where the tube goes through the carb body. Bulb from small tank gets good and hard and stays hard. NGK BPR7HS plugs look like they are factory gapped at .02. I might open them up to .03. Should the idle timing be at the 4 deg mark while cranking it, because I am not sure if it is there? At least I dont give up too easy. I know that once you get these things going they go and go.
 
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flyingscott

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Take a breath and relax. You should put champion plugs in that they should be gapped at .030. Check the flywheel key.
 

drmagnum

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A little about me. I have lots of experience from trade school to the multiple cars, trucks, motorcycles, lawn mowers, tractors and snowmobiles I have rebuilt over the years. I am almost 50 and have had mostly success with these and some failures of course I didn't always get it right, but good for learning. I am pretty new to boat motors and will agree they are a different breed. I don't know any motor that I have run for hours on end at wide open throttle except for a boat motor. I do not have a vehicle that is less than 17 years old and repair them all myself. I have a fully equipped garage.

Fly wheel key was good when I pulled the flywheel a couple days ago to inspect the coils, but will pull it again to check to see if I didn't get enough torque on the nut and maybe causing the fly wheel to spin.
 
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gm280

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dragnum, STOP! Take a deep breath and go back to square one. Now do the spark test and even compression if you think there is any issue with that. Then proceed slowly with checking fuel pump and lines and move on to the carb(s). Trying to do multiple things as once causes confusion and never pin points to what caused your initial problem. And when I work on tings, I absolutely want to know what cased my problem for my educational experience. So check and fix one thing at a time and see what is the real problem. JMHO
 

drmagnum

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Ok I went back to square one and I pulled the fly wheel and the key looks like new. GTG. I then tested each spark pack and got great blue spark at each across 7/16 gap nice and strong. GTG. I then went to the timing light and highlighted the 4 degree idle mark. It was at about minus 20 degrees. I turned the idle timing adjustment screw in until it read on the 4 degree mark. Hooked it all back up, gas and plugs back in. Vroom it started right up. I had the cuffs on so I shut it right back down after a few seconds of idling, but now I happy to take it to the lake and give it a try. Yeah engine runs and idles.

New problem. I did notice no water coming out of the water jacket jet. I tried a vacuum pump to see if I could get water to go through the jacket. No luck. I will open up the connection at the base of the head where the two water hoses go into the block and see if I can get water through the engine from there and if I can I will drop the lower end and change the pump. I did change the pump 2 years ago and it was not to hard a job. I think it took me about an hour.
 

flyingscott

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That is NOT HOW TO SET low speed timing . You might want to get a manual so you actually know how to do it before you really wreck something. How can you see water in the water jacket did you have them off.
 

drmagnum

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I have a manual.

And this is what you have on your secret page. See below. Notice it says NO NEED TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE IDLE TIMING AS THAT WILL TAKE CARE OF ITSELF.

Well Mine wouldn't even start with the idle set so far off and when I adjusted the idle speed screw to the point where the idle timing was at 4 degrees it magically started. I went through all of the procedures in the manual for the set up of the pointer the cam and all those settings first.
I was calling it the Idle timing but it is actually called the idle speed in the manual. It says I have to be out on the water with a warm engine and setting this thing. I am working on this by myself so that isn't much of an option. As is to turn it over I have a string attached to the a level on the key so I can observe the engine with a timing light. I pull one string to turn it over and another to stop it. I have installed a kill switch at the battery in case things seem out of control for me.

I see the section of the manual that is labeled "cam follower pick up timing" and it says to adjust the low timing with the lock nut and thumb wheel directly to the left of the cam. It is not idling at a bad speed, now that I adjusted the idle speed, enough to start but I will get a tool to check the real speed when I can afford one.

Joe
------------------
(Timing At Cranking Speed 4?)
(J. Reeves)

NOTE: If your engine has the "Fast Start" feature", you must disconnect/eliminate that feature in order to use the following method. The "Fast Start" automatically advances the spark electronically when the engine first starts, dropping it to normal when the engine reaches a certain temperature.

The full spark advance can be adjusted without have the engine running at near full throttle as follows.

To set the timing on that engine, have the s/plugs out, and have the throttle at full, set that timer base under the flywheel tight against the rubber stop on the end of the full spark timer advance stop screw (wire it against that stop if necessary).

Rig a spark tester and have the gap set to 7/16". Hook up the timing light to the #1 plug wire. Crank the engine over and set the spark advance to 4? less than what the engine calls for.

I don't know the full spark advance setting your engine calls for, but to pick a figure, say your engine calls for 28?, set the timing at 24?. The reasoning for the 4? difference is that when the engine is actually running, due to the nature of the solid state ignition componets, the engine gains the extra 4?.

If you set the engine to its true setting at cranking speed, when running it will advance beyond its limit by 4? which will set up pre-ignition causing guaranteed piston damage! You don't want that to take place.

No need to be concerned about the idle timing as that will take care of itself. The main concern is the full advance setting.
 

drmagnum

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For the lack of water issue. I have tested and I have a non functional pump. It is used up and dried out wont pump water.(I was just checking to see if wasps had filled the cavities with mud because we get that a lot here. Nasty little buggers clog stuff up good) I have a new pump coming and I will not be changing a thing till I can get it in the water. I will not be putting it in the water till I can get the pump.
I will also drain and push new gear oil in the lower end just for good measure.

In 2010 I joined this forum when I got the engine and took the engine completely down.
When I got the engine it would not idle and I did a compression test and found the lower port side cylinder had 90 lbs of compression. After opening it up I found it had a scored cylinder and piston. The cause of this was that section of the engine was overheating due to the little rubber plug had been shifted to block water and not redirect it as it was designed. I replaced the rubber plug, bored and honed the cylinder to within 2 thousands roundness and taper and put it all back together and ran it for the last five years.
I plan to get many more years of fun out of it and don't mind putting in the time to fix it.

Thank you Lt FlyingScott for the reality check. You made me go pull out the manual and make sure I wasn't missing anything and calling things the wrong thing. I will try to get the language better and follow the instructions the best I can. I am still learning these outboard engine things and may make more mistakes. Hope I don't junk the engine because it is so much fun to have.
 
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drmagnum

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I pulled my lower end to inspect my pump. I found the rubber impeller to be in not so bad shape, but there are deep groves in the bottom plate. the cup also has a strange pattern worn into it. I am guessing this is leaking and not allowing the pump to build pressure. I still think it is a good idea to wait till I get the new one and the start again with tuning the engine once I got good cooling. I have got a volunteer to help me now so the idle in gear unempeded will be an option now for setting up the idle timing.

I have a couple of questions for the more experienced mechanics here.

When I can begin tuning it do I start with the WOT timing first or the Idle timing first?
They may both be fine now but if I change one doesn't it change the other?

(By the way I think when I had the engine torn all the way down is when I didn't quite get the timing set back up right and I would like to get it right this time)
 

flyingscott

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Low speed timing and high speed timing have NOTHING to do with each other. Your wide open timing never changes as it has a mechanical stop unless you moved the screw leave it ALONE. You have run this motor for how many years and never had a problem with the timing LEAVE IT ALONE. Get a manual or wait for someone else to give you the answer that you want.
 

drmagnum

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Now Mr Flyingscott, I think you are just being rude. I posted I HAVE A MANUAL. Now statements like the one you made are not constructive at all. Did you not read my post and notice that I completely rebuilt this engine when I got it? And I didn't think I set the timing properly then? If your answer it to just follow the manual, or leave it alone, then that is not going to quite work out for me, because I do not have all the tools and or resources to do so and leaving it alone would mean to leave it not running at all and running poorly when it does run. This site has had the best work arounds, very polite people willing to help out and is why I keep coming back to learn. Please try to be polite, I am just trying to set this thing up so it wont give me any more problems on the lake.

The spark advance lever is connected to both the high and low timing and the throttle linkage and It does seem as though one may affect the other due to it is all connected to the throttle and the spark advance wheel under the flywheel can move around for both.

I am used to engines where you just lock down the timing one time and there is no open throttle timing and idle timing because it is all one. These outboard engines are different and I am learning.

The MANUAL calls it CHAPTER 5 ENGINE SYNCHRONIZATION AND LINKAGE ADJUSTMENT.
After setting up the linkage it says to adjust the Wide Open Throttle(WOT) timing. It says to use a test wheel but I do not have a test wheel so in the past I used the method from the secret pages posted on this site. The method this site uses does not say to adjust the low timing and that may have been my problem over the last few years getting it to idle around the harbor. It sure did play a part in getting it to start this time, along with a few leaky fuel issues.
I see the little bolt and lock nut that stops the throttle when it is wide open. The spark advance can still move then this is wide open. Like in the instructions I held it over as far as it would go and set it at the 4 degrees less than what this engine calls for. Mine calls for 28 degrees. The timing settings are printed right on the breather cover and marked on the flywheel.
When I get the pump I will check the WOT first and then out on the lake with a friend piloting I will check the idle as the manual says "Move the spark advance lever until the embossed mark on the throttle cam is aligned with the center of the cam follower. At this point the timing light should indicate 3-5 deg BTDC."
 

82rude

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Please wear a life jacket when you test the motor with your friend.We had a Suzuki mech here years ago to troubleshoot a ill running motor.Long story short ,while he was working on the motor the thing caught and surged and he went flying out,hit his head and was found 140 feet down.You have done something right or she wouldn't of started .Good luck.
 
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