Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - ISSUE

[guitman32]

Having a what seems to be a timing issue as title states....

Original motor was a 1989 175hp Evinrude Crossflow with 35amp (single power pack), vented flywheel

Donor powerhead was sourced from a serial reading 1985 235 crossflow with the 10 amp (twin power pack), non-vented flywheel

So, 1989-175-35-amp flywheel, stator, timer base, power-pack, coils, etc onto a 1985-235-10-amp powerhead (which originally had the non vented fly and twin ppacks)

All components on donor motor were performing perfectly prior to swap (swapped due to water in cyl - non catastrophic failure, just prevenetative)...

She fires right up but idle is erratic...cannot get her to idle on or off quickstart. Haven't gotten to WOT advance yet, but I have had her on the water and mainly idle was a big problem. In order to get her to idle properly the RPMs are too high...making shifting in and out of gear a pain. Im getting spark on all cylinders and compression is an even 115 plus or minus across all cyl...

Everyone thinks Im crazy but Im noticing a ticking coming from aft of the flywheel area, around the area of the reg/rec but it is most prominent only on the port side.

Is there a base incompatibility with the swap? Or am I missing something? Is the powerhead suspect?

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

Did you change out the starboard cylinder head temp switch from the 175 block to the 235 block? 235 has two identical one-wire switches. It's different on the quickstart engines. On a quickstart starboard head, the temp switch has two wires to it. The quickstart is looking for a head temp over 92 degrees so that it can reduce timing. It won't see any such temp with the standard dual 235 (one tan wire) temp switches. It needs the 583789 switch with two wires installed in the starboard head. The black/white wire on the starboard switch sends the signal for idle timing reduced idle timing when the powerhead heats up to over 92 degrees.

 

[Sprky]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

Dual pack motors never had quick start.

If it worked on one it will work on the other.

Your missing something.

Edit: Make sure you have not swapped the coils or the leads to the coils for the top and bottom cylinders.
The primary lead length is decieving and this is a common problem when going back with wiring harness.

 

[guitman32]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

Did you change out the starboard cylinder head temp switch from the 175 block to the 235 block? 235 has two identical one-wire switches. It's different on the quickstart engines. On a quickstart starboard head, the temp switch has two wires to it. The quickstart is looking for a head temp over 92 degrees so that it can reduce timing. It won't see any such temp with the standard dual 235 (one tan wire) temp switches. It needs the 583789 switch with two wires installed in the starboard head. The black/white wire on the starboard switch sends the signal for idle timing reduced idle timing when the powerhead heats up to over 92 degrees.

I didn't change over the starboard temp switch, but I was actually just grounding or opening the circuit on the power pack leads and testing the timing in both modes (both on and off the water). On land I can get the timing seemingly OK in both modes, but it still seems the RPMs are too high at an acceptable idle timing. This effect was exacerbated when on the water, and in order to get her to idle acceptably the RPMs are unacceptably high.

BTW im doing all this by moving the throttle lever with the cable disconnected, thereby moving the timer base arm to dial in an idle timing setting.

Dual pack motors never had quick start.

If it worked on one it will work on the other.

Your missing something.

Edit: Make sure you have not swapped the coils or the leads to the coils for the top and bottom cylinders.
The primary lead length is decieving and this is a common problem when going back with wiring harness.

So can I just disable quickstart if I want on the new motor to save me some hassle? I will check the coil leads as you suggested...Shortest on top, longest on bottom (CDI power pack)?

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

Are you setting the idle rpm's while the boat is floating in the water? You can't set it on the trailer.

 

[guitman32]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

Are you setting the idle rpm's while the boat is floating in the water? You can't set it on the trailer.

Yes, I did try to set it on the water. Problem was that after adjusting the timer base lever to a point where idle was stable, the RPMs were much too high (both on and off quickstart...which I was toggling by grounding/ungrounding the lead to the power pack).

At this point I am not sure what is causing the problem...I try to get her to idle at 700-900rpm on the water but if I do it seems the timing is much too retarded which results in the engine dying.

Shes has fuel (pumping the ball doesn't help), spark (verified on all cyl), and compression (115+- all around). All components were working great before the swap....parts (specifically, carbs) sat for about two months in between the swap so not sure if Im dealing with a carb issue now. Although I did drain the carbs when I removed them from the old motor.

And I will reiterate there is an obvious 'ticking' coming from aft of the reg/rec, which I can hear loudest when I put my ear in between the port cylinder bank and the T/T box (as looking from the rear of the motor), ear at the level of the uppermost cylinder. Not sure if it means anything but DEFINITELY wasnt making this noise on the old powerhead. Also, the ticking gets faster as I rev her up.


I checked the coil leads, they all look good. No plug wires swapped either. Any ideas?

 

[dc095]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

sounds like you got spark jumping from a bare wire under the flywheel.Won't idle to well with that happening.

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

dc095 has a good point. Possible you have a plugwire going to ground. Try running the engine after dark. You should be able to see any plugwires shorting to ground very easily.

 

[guitman32]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

Great suggestion. I visually inspected all wires and tested for shorts no to avail. I haven't started her up at night yet so I will post back with those results.

Is there anything mechanical that could be causing this ticking? Is there a chance that I damaged the stator which is causing an arc (stator resistance test and output using DVA meter reads within spec, FYI).

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

A sharp electrical type crackle is usually very high voltage-like a spark plug wire.

 

[rtek816]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

Did you torque the flywheel to spec? You may want to check the keyway again. The ticking noise I had was when I didn't have the flywheel torqued down (didn't have the correct tools for 145 ft lbs) and the key failed. I thought the engine was going to scatter because of the noise of a loose flywheel.

 

[guitman32]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

Did you torque the flywheel to spec? You may want to check the keyway again. The ticking noise I had was when I didn't have the flywheel torqued down (didn't have the correct tools for 145 ft lbs) and the key failed. I thought the engine was going to scatter because of the noise of a loose flywheel.

I definitely torqued to spec, and even removed and re-installed to check the key, which looks like its still ok. I cranked it down wirh my impact wrench.

But I will throw this in...on the new powerhead there is what looks like a sloppy welding tack on the surface of the crank where the flywheel sits. I was concerned, but when the flywheel is torqued there seems to be no play. Could this be causing a problem similar to your suggestion even though my flywheel key and flywheel are ok?

 

[rtek816]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

Can you get a picture? An impact wrench won't torque down to 145 ft lbs. You need a torque wrench and flywheel holder. That sloppy welding tack is a concern. The keyway only lines up the flywheel. Both tapers (crank and flywheel) need to be smooth, clean and free of dirt, rust and oil. The tapers lock together under the torque of the nut.

The other issue is the tack may cause the flywheel to not sit squarely down where it's supposed to. With the tight clearances, you may be hitting the timer base or stator.

 

[guitman32]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

Can you get a picture? An impact wrench won't torque down to 145 ft lbs. You need a torque wrench and flywheel holder. That sloppy welding tack is a concern. The keyway only lines up the flywheel. Both tapers (crank and flywheel) need to be smooth, clean and free of dirt, rust and oil. The tapers lock together under the torque of the nut.

The other issue is the tack may cause the flywheel to not sit squarely down where it's supposed to. With the tight clearances, you may be hitting the timer base or stator.

I hear you...I use a quality impact driver and Ive never had a problem before (not sure if I get to 145), but I agree that it may still not be sitting flush. Also, I can verify there is no contact to the stator since it is new (I putchased new from CDI so it is mint) and I can verify that there are no scuffs or other evidence of contact anywhere on the outside of the coils.

Either way I'll keep inspecting and I still need to start her at night to check for arcing...

Here is a quick and dirty diagram of where it sounds like the ticking is coming from:

 

[guitman32]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

Well all I sucked it up and got another set of eyes on here....the source of the ticking...it was the coil on cyl #2 arcing to the back of the block. Fixed that up.

I haven't started it myself yet so I don't know if the timing situation improved at all. I will start her tonight and let everyone know.

Also, he said he thinks the idle circuit in the carbs might still need cleaning. My timing pointer is broken so I think I may just swap intake manifolds with the old block when I have the carbs off. Any thoughts?

 

[guitman32]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

She seems to idle much better now. To be honest Im not even sure I need to pull the carbs. I think I'll seatrial her and go from there.

The ticking is definitely gone, which is great...great call on the arcing guys!

 

[Haffiman]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

Went through the postings and noted about the quickstart:
You just grounded the harness end of the black/white to power pack.
However to avoid trouble, be sure you even remove the yellow/red from starter solenoid to power pack, or the quick start might just jump in and out creating havoc and probably kill your power pack.

 

[guitman32]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

Went through the postings and noted about the quickstart:
You just grounded the harness end of the black/white to power pack.
However to avoid trouble, be sure you even remove the yellow/red from starter solenoid to power pack, or the quick start might just jump in and out creating havoc and probably kill your power pack.

Thanks for the input....Im just curious on how that yellow/red wire would kick her in and out of quickstart?

I know that the yellow/red wire is what tells the power pack the motor is starting and to give her the 5 seconds of quickstart...just not sure how that wire would cycle it on and off.

 

[Haffiman]

Re: Swapped all '89 175 35 amp Xflow components to '85 235 10 amp Xflow powerhead - I

I wrote 'might' as I have had problems from time to time with 'leakage' in old systems dropping some mili Amps in the circuit, just enough to activate the quick start. As you do not need it, totally eliminate the function.