2000 Johnson 150hp Power Trim won't take fluid

[Hap123]

I'm trying to troubleshoot my trim/tilt system after it partially failed due to hitting a floating log. When it happened, I was able to trim the motor up, but not down. Loosening the pressure relief valve allowed me to lower the motor fully, after which I could trim it up (with some noise) and down - it also appeared that I had leaked some hydraulic fluid into the water. At the boat ramp, after a few up/down cycles, the unit was barely able to get my motor to the stow position.

Before taking it to the shop, I wanted to make sure that air in the system wasn't my only problem. So, I followed the general procedure as I had found here and elsewhere:

1. With the motor up & trailering arm in the stow position, I opened the pressure relief valve slowly. At about 1/2 turn, the motor lowered into the locked position on the trailering arm, so I know that the system pressure was released. I opened the valve another full turn.
2. As a check to see if I had bent anything, I tried to physically tilt the motor up to release the trailering arm - it would only move a few inches, not enough to give me clearance to stow the trailering arm & lower the motor.
3. I removed the fluid reservoir cap - a small amount of fluid leaked out (boat was horizontal). In case the system was still full, I closed the reservoir.
4. With the pressure relief valve still open, I cycled the trim switch "up" for 30 sec (sounded normal) and then "down" for 30 sec (sounded frothy). and repeated for several more cycles to purge any air in the system.
5. I opened the reservoir cap to see if the system would take some ATM fluid, and a lot of fluid overflowed. I quickly closed the reservoir.
6. I closed the pressure relief valve (to my best guess of 40-50 in-lbs), and tried to trim the motor up/down - no movement. (The dual trim pistons were fully extended throughout this cycle and also did not move).
7. I reopened the pressure relief valve 2 turns and tried again to purge any air from the system with 30 sec up/down trim cycles for several minutes (ending on an "up" trim cycle), then opened the reservoir and more fluid overflowed.

After repeating this purging process several more times, it appears that both the up and down pump direction cause fluid to be pumped up into the reservoir, not out of it, and I was never able to get any ATM fluid into the system. On the chance that a stuck check valve could cause that to happen, I tried rapping the valve body & trim cylinders with a plastic mallet - no change.

I'm sure my system is low on fluid, but I haven't seen anything about problems filling the reservoir, so, I'm stuck. Has anyone had a problem like this? Thanks for any assistance.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: 2000 Johnson 150hp Power Trim won't take fluid

I assume that you have the engine in the full tilt up position when attempting to fill the reservoir. If not do so.

The unit is self bleeding. If the problem still exists, remove the reservoir screw fill plug and apply 7 to 12 psi of air to the reservoir which will force oil into its proper passageways...... and especially under the oil pump which may have developed an air pocket. Let us know what you find.

 

[Chris1956]

Re: 2000 Johnson 150hp Power Trim won't take fluid

After you fill it, close the resevoir cap, and cycle it down and up, Pressure relief valve closed. Lock it in the up position and wait 10 minutes for the air to bubble up. Refill and repeat, until all the air is out.

 

[Hap123]

Re: 2000 Johnson 150hp Power Trim won't take fluid

Joe & Chris, Thanks for your response

My problem at this point is, I can't get any fluid into the system, and I can't move the motor, not even manually. The motor is on the trailer support arm. Using a piece of clear tubing & a funnel, I have been able to pull about 2 ounces of fluid into the reservoir by holding the trim "up" button on (with pressure release valve open), but as soon as I stop pumping , the fluid I've added immediately spills back out, before I can get the cap on.

The only thing I can think to do now is to rig up some kind of seal where my fill tube enters the reservoir, fill my funnel, leave it sit, and see if I get a gradual gravity feed into the system. From what you guys are telling me, I'm guessing that a system full of air, like mine apparently is, requires a lot of patience to get fluid loaded. If I can get a few ounces in, then I'll try some pressure as Joe suggested. ??

 

[Chris1956]

Re: 2000 Johnson 150hp Power Trim won't take fluid

Can you lift the motor with your arm, while running the motor in the up position? If so, that is the way to go. If not, you might need to remove the PTT unit and rebuild it.

 

[Hap123]

Re: 2000 Johnson 150hp Power Trim won't take fluid

No, I can't move the motor at all. As a matter of fact, I don't get any change of pitch in the trim system as you normally would when the pump comes under a load, even after 30 seconds continuous up or down trim (Pressure Release Valve closed). When I first started troubleshooting, I was able to manually lift the motor a couple of inches off of the trailer arm (why not all the way up?), but now I can't manually lift it at all - I don't understand that.

On the subject of rebuilding, what's the consensus on whether it's worth it or not? If I do it myself, I'll apparently need a retaining clip tool & a torch to get the upper tilt pin out, then I'll either need to buy:

1) A used unit - $350 - $500 ?
2) A remanufactured unit w warrantee- $850 - $950?
3) My local shop ~ $400 rebuild labor + parts $???
4) Rebuild myself - special tools needed? - $??? + Rebuild Kit - $???

I have a feeling that option 4 is only for folks who are pros or really love that kind of stuff. I rebuild a 3 cylinder powerhead once, and it took me a week to get the flywheel off of the crankshaft, so I probably should pass on that, unless it's easier than I think. ???

 

[jonesg]

Re: 2000 Johnson 150hp Power Trim won't take fluid

Less than $100 DIY, this forum is for folks who want to work on their outboards or are financially forced to so...thats why we advocate trying.

I wouldn't be too quick to throw in the towel yet though.
Have you tried openeing the manual valve and lifting the leg up?
I can do it on my 150.
Then cycle it up and down manually to get fluid flowing thru the system, it should burp a bubble.

And if you have already loosened the manual vlave theres a very good chance you have not torqued it closed, you cannot accomplish it by hand with just a screwdriver, I had that problem myself last year.

The thing about wrenching on engines is its very frustrating at first but if you stick with it and keep asking for help you'll find it gets better as you learn.

You also have access to some very talented experts here.

 

[Hap123]

Re: 2000 Johnson 150hp Power Trim won't take fluid

Here's my current status on this problem -

I've given up on trying to get fluid into the system at this point. Even if I just load 1/2 ounce at a time and leave it sit for a while, as best I can tell, 100% of what I have loaded has spilled back out of the reservoir fill hole.

As I stated previously, my motor is frozen on the trailer support arm. When I first started troubleshooting, I could lift it a few inches off of the support arm, but now it will not budge. I suspect that, after opening and closing the pressure relief valve a number of times, it is no longer releasing. The last couple of times I turned the screw, it felt like something was starting to bind up.

So, I am moving on to pulling the unit, I've ordered a repair manual, but in the meantime, I have to figure out how to get the unit off of the transom bracket with the motor stuck in the trailering position. I know that the standard procedure for pulling a Fastrac PTT starts with driving out the upper tilt pin, but I can't get to it with the motor on the trailer arm.

Has anyone got any experience with pulling this unit by starting with the lower tilt pin? I'm thinking that, once it is out, I should be able to pry the bottom of the unit away from the transom bracket & then lift the motor up to the full tilt lock position, then get to the top pin. Is there something I'm missing here? Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: 2000 Johnson 150hp Power Trim won't take fluid

First off, since you do have access of sorts to the reservoir fill hole, apply some air pressure to it as mentioned some posts back..... nothing to lose. Then, if the problem continues to exist.................

What you are calling a pressure relief valve is actually the "Manual Release Valve", not that it makes any difference but it's best that we keep on the same page. The pressure relief valve is usually under the oil pump.

Pertaining to the manual release valve, the proper distance to back it out to obtain manual tilting is two full turns. Any further and you run the risk of backing it into a internal snap ring that designed to prevent the valve from falling out when in the water.

It's possible that this has already happened and is the cause of the binding you speak of. If so...... and even if not..... see if you can remove that snap ring, then back the manual release valve completely and remove it.

If with that valve completely removed, you still cannot move that engine, then indeed you will need to remove the unit for repairs.

 

[Hap123]

Re: 2000 Johnson 150hp Power Trim won't take fluid

Joe, Thanks for the response -

I'll be sure to call that screw the Manual Release Valve in the future, sorry for the confusion. I understood your earlier recommendation to pressurize the system, it was on my list of troubleshooting steps. However, I don't have much, if any, fluid in the system to pressurize, and I didn't want to go through the hassle of rigging up some kind of a homemade reservoir pressurizing plug without some chance of success.

I do understand the basic design of the Manual Release Valve & believe I have stayed within the acceptable range of rotation - See steps 1,6&7 of my original post. Also, I had read elsewhere that you can damage the valve by overtightening and that the fully closed torque on the screw should be 40 - 50 in-lbs, which I did . But, I'm pretty sure that valve is now closed/blocked, even though the screw is currently rotated about 2 turns open.

At this point, I'm going to replace the seals and probably the Manual Release Valve & Seal Assembly on this unit no matter what, so the PTT is coming off. It looks like removing the Manual Release Valve retaining clip through the port stern bracket access hole would be hard to do, even though doing so would most likely free up the system and allow me to lift the motor onto the tilt lock lever, allowing for removal of the upper tilt pin. If I have to do it that way I will, but I'd prefer to get the motor up by driving the lower tilt pin out first, and not mess with the Manual Release Valve Assembly extraction until I have the unit on the workbench. The only potential problem I can think of is that there might be an issue un-stringing the tilt motor wiring harness?? If taking the lower tilt pin out first is a bad idea, somebody please let me know.

 

[jonesg]

Re: 2000 Johnson 150hp Power Trim won't take fluid

Joe, Thanks for the response -

I'll be sure to call that screw the Manual Release Valve in the future, sorry for the confusion. I understood your earlier recommendation to pressurize the system, it was on my list of troubleshooting steps. However, I don't have much, if any, fluid in the system to pressurize, and I didn't want to go through the hassle of rigging up some kind of a homemade reservoir pressurizing plug without some chance of success.

I do understand the basic design of the Manual Release Valve & believe I have stayed within the acceptable range of rotation - See steps 1,6&7 of my original post. Also, I had read elsewhere that you can damage the valve by overtightening and that the fully closed torque on the screw should be 40 - 50 in-lbs, which I did . But, I'm pretty sure that valve is now closed/blocked, even though the screw is currently rotated about 2 turns open.

At this point, I'm going to replace the seals and probably the Manual Release Valve & Seal Assembly on this unit no matter what, so the PTT is coming off. It looks like removing the Manual Release Valve retaining clip through the port stern bracket access hole would be hard to do, even though doing so would most likely free up the system and allow me to lift the motor onto the tilt lock lever, allowing for removal of the upper tilt pin. If I have to do it that way I will, but I'd prefer to get the motor up by driving the lower tilt pin out first, and not mess with the Manual Release Valve Assembly extraction until I have the unit on the workbench. The only potential problem I can think of is that there might be an issue un-stringing the tilt motor wiring harness?? If taking the lower tilt pin out first is a bad idea, somebody please let me know.

Once the manual release valve is loosened a couple of turns its not possible for it to block the passge unless it broke, theres a plastic or delrin seal on the end. Suppose it could...but...

You say you hit a log in the water? theres an internal emergency pressure relief valve which allows the motor to tilt up instead of ripping the tramsom off the boat or breaking the mounting bracket, it might have tripped that valve. I don't know what the consequences are if that happens, maybe the valve has to be replaced. My shop manual is at work.
What does Joe say about this ?
and is that the reason to pressurize it with air from the reservoir end to reseat the valve?

 

[Hap123]

Re: 2000 Johnson 150hp Power Trim won't take fluid

After the impact, I could tilt my motor up, but not down. Opening the Manual Release Valve lowered the motor, after which I had full range of tilt/trim capability for a few cycles. If an emergency release valve was triggered by the impact, it probably reset OK or I would not have had full travel ??

Joe had said that the reason to pressurize the system was to force fluid into the lower part of the system - maybe that includes past the emergency release valve? I'd love to have a hydraulic circuit diagram of the Fastrac PTT.

I'm pretty sure something happened to the Manual Release Valve circuit after I started troubleshooting. At one point, with the MRV open about 2 turns, I could physically lift the lower unit about 2 inches off of the Trailering Arm - but no higher (felt like a mechanical stop, which I still don't understand). Later on, after closing/opening the MRV a number of times and trying to cycle fluid through the system as outlined in the initial post, I could no longer lift the motor off of the trailering arm at all - with the MRV open about 2 turns as before. And, at some point, turning the MRV started to feel like something in there was starting to bind up.

Bottom line now is, I can't move the motor manually with the MRV open for whatever reason, and I can't move it hydraulically presumably because of low fluid - and I can't get fluid in. I need to remove the PTT from the boat because I've probably blown a seal and probably buggered the MRV. Since I can't move the motor, I can't get to the top tilt pin to remove the PTT the normal way, so I want to take out the lower tilt pin, then lift the motor with the PTT still attached to get to the upper tilt pin. I know that extracting the MRV while still on the transom is an option to try to release the system, but I don't want to try that unless I have to.

Still hoping someone can advise as to whether removing a Fastrac PTT by starting with the lower tilt pin is doable or not.

 

[jonesg]

Re: 2000 Johnson 150hp Power Trim won't take fluid

The factory service manual has 45 pages dedicated just to the T/T, you'll have to order yours from the dealer but well worth the price in savings.
Paid about $50 for mine.
PM me , I can copy my fastrac section from the factory service book and fax it to you , pretty sure the system is the same, send me a fax number if you have one.

I'm pretty certain you're going to need an engine hoist, cherry picker thing, to pull the engine off the transom , got mine from craigslist for $125, very handy to have. Lots of em for sale.
http://houston.craigslist.org/tls/1660153634.html

With the MRV loose you can actually lift the leg, a lot of guys think its not possible but I've done it a couple of times, just do it slowly, the fluid has to pass thru the passageways.

 

[Chris1956]

Re: 2000 Johnson 150hp Power Trim won't take fluid

I was able to remove the PTT unit on my '98 Johnny 150V6, while the motor stayed on the transom. Of course I was able to lift the motor all the way up and lock it with the manual lock. I also needed to remove the tilt/trim wires from its connector, so they would pull thru the hole in the transom bracket.

 

[jdlloyd_iboat]

Re: 2000 Johnson 150hp Power Trim won't take fluid

Hap123,
It has been nearly two months since your last post and if you have fixed your problem, I'd be interested in knowing how you resolved it. I have encountered a similar problem (won't take more fluid) for different reasons and perhaps not as severe as yours. If interested read here:
http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=400622&highlight=tilt
Thanks for anything you'd be willing to share.

 

[jdlloyd_iboat]

Re: 2000 Johnson 150hp Power Trim won't take fluid

Update: Several weeks ago, I took the advice of Joe Reeves finally and it immediately solved the problem with the pump by putting a little air pressure into the fill port. This must have relieved an air block in the pump inlet. The T/T unit now works like it was new after I was able to purge all the air in the lines and top up the reservoir. Sorry I missed using his tip the first time he made the suggestion. Thanks Joe.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: 2000 Johnson 150hp Power Trim won't take fluid

You didn't miss it..... you ignored it. Next time, listen to me