1986 225hp Evinrude - voltage regulator questions

[cfauvel]

referring to thread http://forums.iboats.com/forum/engin...-115hp-1996-v4

6 years ago I bought my CDI Regulator and discussed in brief the warning about running AGM batteries...

That regulator is starting to act weird...sometimes read 12 volts (battery voltage), then shoot up to 16+ volts.

the following are some questions and responses from the other thread, but starting anew in this thread.

Cfauvel

resurrecting this from the dead...

didn't realize I've had my AGM starting battery for 6 years. Ditto for the REG....seems my reg MIGHT be acting up or the battery is acting up....Sometimes the reg doesn't give me juice out of the blue, then spike up to 16v+.. over the course of 6 years the non-maintenance-free flooded battery wouldn't stay charged so a few years ago bought an dual purpose AGM...

these AGMs are the bomb.

My new REG (not installed yet) of course had the DO NOT USE AGM batteries or WARRANTY VOIDED..

so started looking at non-maintenance-free batteries again...before putting my new reg in.

anyone come up with the BEST flooded batteries.

FED -

I'd question CDI before spending a penny.
OMC recommend the use of maintenance free batteries.
AGM are still lead acid batteries but they use glass mat between the plates for separation, I did read somewhere they run on a slightly higher Voltage.
Your 16 Volts is a worry, I know my stock OMC regulator limits the Voltage to just under 15 Volts.
Is your Voltmeter accurate?
Zero Volts could be a fault anywhere in the system but 16 Volts points to a faulty regulator, I'd like to think pull starting and running without a battery the regulator would still clip it to 15 Volts or less. I can't imagine OMC relying on combined battery load & regulator to limit the Voltage.

cfauvel -

Already bought the new reg...just haven't installed it yet.

the current regulator appears to be 6 years old...

is the volt meter gauge accurate? well not sure, really...if anything it reads on the low side....fully charged battery reads around 12v at the gauge and 13+ at the multimeter...so I would assume 16+ at the gauge might be closer to 17+....eeeks

Might be time to get a new volt meter gauge to be sure.....it is 31 years old....

I need to run the boat and have my meter handy to test at the battery when I see 16+....CDi does state that (had to hunt and peck to find it) the AGM would pull higher V from the regulator....I just don't get how CDI can't put something in the guts to cap it at 15V...or maybe they do , when new, but using AGM, it does something and breaks diodes in the reg to allow > 15v

Could be a loose cable somewhere too I guess...


read somewhere too that if you run the engine without the battery it would mess up the reg as the volts have no where to go...

Cfauvel -

Did some testing
1 - at the battery I have 12.9v
2 - at the starter solenoid I have 12.9
3 - undoing the big red plug by the motor I have 12.9
4 - at volt gauge I have 11.7, the gauge is using the purple ignition wire .
5 - tested purple wire all the way to the horn and there too it is 11.7
6 - tested a power distribution strip and was around 12.86

so somewhere between the big red plug at the motor to the horn I'm losing 1.2 v
and the gauge is accurate as it displays slightly less that 12V mark....

Should I change the gauge's sender wire to be from the distribution strip instead...as the distribution strip is getting power directly from the battery ?

FED -

11.7 Volts on the Purple is low, it should read very close to battery Voltage with only instrument loads on it.
The Purple wire is fed from the solenoid positive (red) via the fuse where it changes to red/purple, via the red plug, via the key switch where it changes to straight purple.
It sounds like in addition to the 16 Volt problem you may also have a dodgy connection on the purple or purple/red or fuse or red plug or key switch.
I think I'd compare the meter against a known good one or buy a new one, gotta start with a base line.

Should I change the gauge's sender wire to be from the distribution strip instead...as the distribution strip is getting power directly from the battery ?


No because then the gauges would be ON all the time.

cfauvel

I am pretty confident the gauge is reading right as it lines up with my multimeter...BUT why is there 1.2 v drop from motor to horn....I HATE removing the key switch...a real PITA removing the gimble mount to get to it.. But I want to see if there is 11.7 behind the key switch....I am pretty sure there is...

more likely like you said...something at the motor end where red turns into purple....gotta find that.

FED -

Follow the small red wire on the positive side of the solenoid ---> fuse ---> red plug...

I have to say being a constant 1.2 Volt drop it does sound like straight out voltage drop along the red/purple wire BUT with only the gauges on it seems very large.
You could unplug your accessory harness and measure it there at the controller, that should take all the load off it.

Voltage drop is proportional to current, halve the current you halve the voltage drop.

cfauvel -

Will do

I have the following gauges
Tach (with light that works)
Volt (light doesn't work_
Hour (which doesn't work - couldn't that be the draw, light doesn't work)
Fuel Flow (navman f2100, back lit)
two fuel gauge (both lights work)


Voltage drop is proportional to current, halve the current you halve the voltage drop


you lost me there, sorry.

So that's where we are...need to follow the volts from the motor to purple wire to see where the voltage drop is occurring.


May start a new thread as to the BEST non-maintenance-free flooded battery

 

[cfauvel]

did some more tests today
at starter solenoid, battery cable had 12.98 v
at the red plug (main harness) had 12.98 v

at the horn I had 12.5
at the first gauge running off of one purple wire I had 11.9 V.

traced that wire and found a BUTT connector, back probed it at the inlet side of the connector and got 12.5V....so from the outlet side of the butt connector and wire I lost .5 V...Will be replacing the butt connector and wire tomorrow..

I haven't tested the purple wire at the wire harness behind the key switch...it is a real pain to do...but will.soon.


the purple wire to the horn and the purple wire to the first gauge is coming from the binnacle mount....can't get to the key switch without removing the whole binnacle.

 

[Fed]

That's a good find.

Here's a little test if you could be bothered.

Disconnect the purple/white wire from the primer solenoid and check the voltage between it & the block when the key is ON & pushed IN.
Looking to see where the last half a Volt is disappearing to, voltage drop or another high resistance connection.
The key switch uses a different set of contacts to the acc for the primer.

What day is rec/reg day? (Still a little confused with CDI here)
Seems a shame to dump your AGMs.

 

[cfauvel]

Disconnect the purple/white wire from the primer solenoid and check the voltage between it & the block when the key is ON & pushed IN.

ok will do provided I find a help....the primer solenoid is buried behind the pump and hoses...a ***** to get to...I would guess that it will be the .5 less volt

What day is rec/reg day? (Still a little confused with CDI here)
Seems a shame to dump your AGMs.

I know right?!...I bought the reg from a company in OK, that extends the warranty to three years....I paid a little more for the peace of mind...

I thought about running the battery switch in BOTH mode so that the stator/reg is throwing juice to both batteries at the same time...I read on CDI site that if the reg puts out too much to run the batteries in parallel (not sure if the switch in BOTH would be considered parallel)

Not sure when I'll switch out the rec/reg....might run as is until it really screws the pooch, or consistently runs 16+v

I don't recall it running 16V 6 years ago...so maybe just replacing it is fine......replacing once every six years is not too terrible...

the AGMs are more expensive than the reg.

 

[Fed]

If you get 12.9 Volts on the purple/white that would indicate you are losing the half a volt through the accessories contacts in the key switch.

I've had unregulated 70 HPs run at 18 Volts, WOT on a mid sized fully charged battery.

 

[cfauvel]

didn't test today...BUT I did go fishing today....used the dual purpose agm solely today....the volt meter never went past 14v.....sometimes after sitting with the live well going and the fish finder going, when I cranked the motor the Garmin would yell that the volts went down to like 9.8 v...but whilst NOT cranking it was still around 12.

 

[dingbat]

when I cranked the motor the Garmin would yell that the volts went down to like 9.8 v...but whilst NOT cranking it was still around 12.

note... the voltage Garmin reports is not battery voltage. It's reading the output of the internal power supply.

Went thru the same $crap 4 years ago.
Demand outweighed battery capacity. 6-7 hours on the troll brought alarms and shut downs. Not acceptable 60 miles offshore...
swapped out grp. 27 starting battery for second deep cycle and installed ACR problem resolved.

Trolled 10 hours last weekend. 4 of that on radar. No low voltage alarms (set at 12 volts)

 

[cfauvel]

note... the voltage Garmin reports is not battery voltage. It's reading the output of the internal power supply.

Went thru the same $crap 4 years ago.
Demand outweighed battery capacity. 6-7 hours on the troll brought alarms and shut downs. Not acceptable 60 miles offshore...
swapped out grp. 27 starting battery for second deep cycle and installed ACR problem resolved.

Trolled 10 hours last weekend. 4 of that on radar. No low voltage alarms (set at 12 volts)

Cool..help me understand some things.

1 - I have a dedicated volt meter and it read the same as the garmin...though the garmin reads to a decimal place...what is the difference between the voltage that the gamin get through the red wire and the internal power supply?

2 - what is an ACR?


The main question is why does CDI NOT warranty their regulator if you use AGM batteries....
I run two batteries..an AGM blue top starting and an AGM blue top dual purpose....the starting battery is like 6 years old and still going strong...I was seeing spikes of 16+ at my voltmeter, which when tested by multimeter is right on the money, though there is a voltage drop between what is at the battery and accessory Purple wire.


I found at least .5 voltage drop at a butt connector, so if we put that back into the equation my current regulator , when on the starting battery, would see closer to 17v+ while running.....that's TOO much.

Yesterday after getting the engine started and warmed up....I switched batteries to the dual purpose (after shutting the engine off first), and ran on that all day (including starting), and never saw more than 14v at the volt meter or garmin....which IS what is expected.


I'll probably hang on to the new regulator until the current one consistently falters or I lose Tach.

 

[cfauvel]

That's a good find.

Here's a little test if you could be bothered.

Disconnect the purple/white wire from the primer solenoid and check the voltage between it & the block when the key is ON & pushed IN.
Looking to see where the last half a Volt is disappearing to, voltage drop or another high resistance connection.
The key switch uses a different set of contacts to the acc for the primer.

What day is rec/reg day? (Still a little confused with CDI here)
Seems a shame to dump your AGMs.

update: Today decided to do your test...starting voltage of large red battery wire to ground....I had roughly 12.5 V (I think I blew a GFI fuse at the outlet, thus charger not charging)....removed the purple wire at solenoid and activated solenoid at key switch....got 12.25 v at the purple wire...so I lost 1/4 v from large red plug to key switch to acc back to solenoid. doesn't sound horrible.

I borrowed a battery tester that displays whether or not you have a bad cell ....the newer dual purpose AGM, registered fine....650 CCA rating and tester said it was slightly more.....the older Starting AGM, registered as having a bad cell...also 650 cca rating, but registered having roughly 380 CCA..
Interestingly the starting battery starts the motor just fine.....having a bad cell, I think, would explain why the voltage regulator is pushing over 16v when on start battery, and registering 14 volts when on dual purpose battery....right?

 

[Fed]

Since you have fixed the butt connector I'd leave the control circuit alone, at least for now.
The reason being depending on the load (amps) I think the 1/4 to 1/2 Voltage drop between the motor & the key switch is probably normal.
(With the purple/white disconnected from the primer valve solenoid there is no load so there is no Voltage drop so the 1/4 Volt drop was between the motor and the controller)

Fully charge your AGM starting battery & re-test.
Note: A charger without an AGM setting may or may not fully charge an AGM battery.

If it fails the re-test I guess a new one is due, AGM or flooded is something for you to agonize over.
Makes me wonder if BRP don't give warranty on their regulators if connected to an AGM battery or is it a CDI restriction only.

 

[cfauvel]

Since you have fixed the butt connector I'd leave the control circuit alone, at least for now.
The reason being depending on the load (amps) I think the 1/4 to 1/2 Voltage drop between the motor & the key switch is probably normal.
(With the purple/white disconnected from the primer valve solenoid there is no load so there is no Voltage drop so the 1/4 Volt drop was between the motor and the controller)

Fully charge your AGM starting battery & re-test.
Note: A charger without an AGM setting may or may not fully charge an AGM battery.

If it fails the re-test I guess a new one is due, AGM or flooded is something for you to agonize over.
Makes me wonder if BRP don't give warranty on their regulators if connected to an AGM battery or is it a CDI restriction only.

well actually haven't fixed the butt connector yet...wanted to get a new piece of purple wire to replace the one I have coming from the butt connector..

I will fully charge the battery again and re-test using the tool....it appears that Battery Tender supports AGMs in their charging schemes.

if bad battery, agonize I will....

Good question about BRP's warranty restrictions on their regulators...

 

[cfauvel]

UPDATE: re-tested the starting battery and it is registering 380 CCA, when it should be 800, and the tester states bad cell....I suspect the HIGH output from regulator in past WAS because the battery I was trying to charge was bad...like I said, the last time we went out, i used the newer dual purpose battery solely and the Volts were correct.

still need to fix the BUTT connector , but might actually run a newer purple wire from the key switch to the first gauge in the daisy chain...might also put a distribution strip for the accessories wire.

been playing around with the re-circ valves, vro, primer solenoid...and fuel lines....chasing excessive smoke at idle.

 

[Fed]

Sounds like you've got the high Voltage sorted out.

might actually run a newer purple wire from the key switch to the first gauge in the daisy chain...might also put a distribution strip for the accessories wire.

Why the new wire?
The accessories wire & the purple wire are the same wire on mine and the only things I run off it are the gauges.
All other equipment runs from a dedicated & fused circuit directly off the battery to the helm then branches out from there.

On your idle smoke does it smoke on the water once it's fully warmed up?

 

[cfauvel]

Why the new wire?
The accessories wire & the purple wire are the same wire on mine and the only things I run off it are the gauges.
All other equipment runs from a dedicated & fused circuit directly off the battery to the helm then branches out from there.

Currently, without pulling out the throttle mechanism and key switch, I think the wire I am using is on a smaller gauge size and probably has another butt connector (not sure at this point)....So thought about starting fresh with a nice piece of ancor 16 gauge straight from the key switch

On your idle smoke does it smoke on the water once it's fully warmed up?

No not really, just real bad at startup and bad on water muffs at idle...like oil is puddling up for some reason....I did notice blueish fuel in the last fuel filter at the motor, and have drippings of blueish fuel from each of the carbs.

Bought a bunch of Snap Clamps and fuel hoses of various sizes and replacing the ones that are suspect or hard.

tested all six recirc valves and only 1 is working right, two are missing their screens and those are missing what ever mechanism makes the check valve. Soaking the others in acetone...but went ahead and bought new ones...expensive boogers

found oil leak on the oil side of the VRO...
http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-...-vro2-oms.html

bought new seals for the gas inlets/outlets, the oil side of VRO and seals for the primer solenoid too(I suspected the valve's gasket , being 31 years old)

tested the vro's air motor and fuel pump and there are no leaks

Question about recirc-valves....so there are 1/16" ID hoses that go from the valves to nipple at each piston...what I don't get is that right now the nipples at the cylinder aren't flowing air ....I can put a vacuum on a piece of hose connect to the nipple and it holds vacuum....if I blow air into a hose connected to the nipple it pressurizes and pops the hose off....so are they clogged or does the motor need to be running to allow flow from the recirc-valves to these nipples?

If they are clogged, there is no way to get the fuel from behind the intake manifold to the pistons....effectively not have the recirc system....thoughts?


When I get the vro back on I'll verify that the oil side is functioning correctly and test the no-oil circuit....

 

[Fed]

You sure pick on the hard things to fix, I know nothing about the recirc system or the inner working of the magic vros.
There was a poster on here who got right into the pulse vs count vs rpm side of the vros, I'm pretty sure his name was werner or something similar so I'll see if I can find the threads.
FWIW I remember my manual talking about a syringe filled with alcohol for testing the recirc valves.

 

[cfauvel]

You sure pick on the hard things to fix,

LOL...just want to make this motor run as well as possible...it is running the best it had since 1992 when I got the boat.....lol every decade I make strides...

I know nothing about the recirc system or the inner working of the magic vros.
There was a poster on here who got right into the pulse vs count vs rpm side of the vros, I'm pretty sure his name was werner or something similar so I'll see if I can find the threads.

Let me know if you find it.

FWIW I remember my manual talking about a syringe filled with alcohol for testing the recirc valves.

I'm pretty sure the vacuum pump test is spot on for the recirc valves...

not sure about the nipples on the cylinders though....I wouldn't expect a second set of check valves, that would seem silly as the recirc-valves would be doing what it needs to and allow excess fuel to flow from recirc-valve to nipple on cylinder....gotta find somebody who knows nipples LOL

 

[cfauvel]

FED - started a new thread for recirc-valves....no responses yet

http://forums.iboats.com/forum/engin...de-225-hp-1986

 

[Fed]

Put a post in the other thread, not much help though.