71 Johnson 50 #1 cyl?

[jbuote]

Howdy all!!

This is going to sound silly, and I feel silly for asking, but...
​The #1 cylinder on my 71 Johnson 50hp 2cyl, is the top cylinder, yes?

​I can't seem to confirm that with my manual..
​Anyway, the reason I'm asking is because I'm still trying to get her running reliably.
She'll run sometimes (well, got started 3 times so far), but it's a pain getting her going...

Previously I had:
new battery
cables and connections cleaned throughout
Batt connections tight (with wrench, nut not wingnut)
Rebuilt the carbs, and set floats properly.
​Checked compression and spark, both were good. Comp well above 100 and even, spark open air 7/16 gap, crisp snap, blue spark both cyls....
​Set low speed needle valves on carb to 1-1/2 turn out from seated (lightly, not TIGHT seated.. lol).
Fresh gas/oil mix
​Fuel sprays from inlet hose when disconnected from carbs and turning over, so fuel delivery up to carb is working.

​Used correct cold starting procedure. (Including setting lever to "Start".. I've missed that step before.. :facepalm


​I'm probably going to either rebuild or replace the starter soon as after a few times trying to start her, starter slows down and warms up.
​Let the starter cool off and it's back to good starting speed for a few attempts.

​She'll turn over fine (starter speed as described above), and "Pop" from the exhaust often, but usually that's about it except for the 3 times she actually started and ran.. Sounded pretty good too when she ran...

​Figured I'd check the timing of flywheel by putting eraser end of a pencil in the Top cylinder, (both plugs out, batt disconnected) and hand turn flywheel till pencil won't come out any further and then see if timing pointer was at or VERY near the TDC mark on flywheel.
​Figuring that might tell me if key sheared and/or flywheel shifted on crankshaft.

​What I found, was when the TOP cylinder is at TDC (or as close as I can get it via pencil), the timing marks are at the BACK of the engine, closest to the spark plugs, and about 180degrees from the timing mark on the crankcase...
​So, as would follow, the BOTTOM cylinder TDC (again via pencil) has the TDC flywheel mark lined up with the timing pointer on the crankcase....

​So... Either somehow the flywheel shifted 180 degrees, (sheared key etc...)
​OR
​I'm wrong, and the BOTTOM cylinder is #1 and things are as they should be....
OR
​I've had a major brain malfunction and didn't find TDC of the cylinder anywhere CLOSE to correctly....

​Sorry so long winded here, but was hoping to answer most preliminary questions I could envision ahead of time... LOL

​I appreciate it in advance... (sigh...) lol
​Thanks!!

 

[racerone]

Top cylinder is always # 1-----On my tester I would see 140 psi + on these motors----And your battery / starter are no good !!

 

[jbuote]

Ok, So top cylinder being #1 is confirmed. Thanks racerone!

​Now, I know the starter is suspect, so I'm taking that into account in my mind and as I said, I have plans to rebuild or replace it very soon.
The battery is known good! It's brand new, and when I had issues turning it over, I went so far as to have it load tested thinking I got a dud...
​It tested good.

​Checked my notes from earlier when I did compression test, and it was 170 both cyls....

​As for what I checked, If the top cyl is #1, then the flywheel is shifted 180, and could continue to be slipping as I turn it over?? Time to pull the flywheel and check/replace key then or am I missing something else?

 

[boobie]

Pull the flywheel and check the key.

 

[gm280]

Pull the flywheel and check the key.

You beat me to it. Sure sounds like a key sheered. Remove the flywheel and verify the key is good. DON'T assume anything when trouble-shooting. You will never get it running. Verify everything and then you can rule things out. JMHO

 

[jbuote]

So, Thank you all for confirming my suspicion regarding pulling the flywheel. I wanted the second opinions because I didn't have ANY of the tools needed, so today I went out and bought the flywheel puller, 1-5/16 socket, a strap wrench, and of course, a torque wrench capable of OVER 1260 inch lbs. According to my manual, that is the highest torque on the engine for bolts/nuts, and it's the Flywheel nut.. (100-105 ft/lbs)..

Anyway,
​Pulled the flywheel off and....................


​Sheared Flywheel key.....
​I have NO idea why it started at all those 3 times... Guess it just happened to be in the right spot at the time...
​I'm going to re-check compression/spark etc once I replace the key just to be sure nothing got damaged internally. I don't think so, but going to check anyway..
​I checked the taper of the shaft, and it doesn't look bad. Nor does the flywheel.. Mating surfaces looked ok.. (phew...)

​I also pulled the starter and will take that apart now, to see if it's worth getting parts and rebuilding, or just buying a replacement. Can't try to start it now anyway, so it's the perfect time and could get the key and starter/parts at the same time! lol.

Thanks again all!!!! I much appreciate it!

​Joe

 

[boobie]

Make sure you use a flywheel key from an OMC dealer, not the hardware store.

 

[jbuote]

OH Yes.. I intend to.... I've read a few posts about that and the metals aren't the same necessarily etc....
​Going to be SURE I have the right type.. From iboats here or other marine type retailer for Johnson...
​Hoping everything I will need is here.. Have gotten some good deals on iboats so far! lol!!

 

[gm280]

Okay, glad you found your problem and it is an easy fix. Let us know how it all works out. :thumb:

 

[jbuote]

I try to help others here when I can, and when I think it MIGHT be helpful.
​I also point out that I'm new, and others would probably help more etc...
In that regard, I just advised someone to hold off putting the flywheel back on until other folks here advised what else to check while it's off.. Didn't want him to put it on, just to have to pull it again later...

Then I thought.. Wait a sec... My flywheel is off too!
​So let me ask..
​While it's off, what else should I REALLY pay attention to and examine while it's all accessible?
​Doesn't matter if it's related to my current problem or just an in general exam that should be done while flywheel is off.
​Anything would be good to know.

Make sense? LOL

Thanks in advance!!

Joe

 

[jbuote]

Update....
​So I took the starter off and was going to check it out myself, but I don't have all the "Pro" tools.. So, I found a local shop and they checked it for me.
​It was good. They just replaced brushes for me too, so should be better than before.

​I'm thinking now, perhaps the struggle it had to turn the engine over, and getting a bit warm, was from the current draw trying to turn the engine over with timing basically backwards and constantly changing.. If the fuel was igniting at BDC, then the starter was trying to overcome the pressure of ignition on top of normal use...
That would explain why sometimes it turned over just fine, and then would have a hard time, then be fine again... (Flywheel slipping, timing changing).,.

​The P.O, had the fuel lines backwards (tank line to pump out, pump in to carb bowls.. :facepalm,
The steering was backwards. (If I were to turn left, the boat would have gone right.. :facepalm.
​So I have NO doubt, he probably just threw the flywheel on for a sell, and didn't torque it.. That's probably what sheared the flywheel key and here I am..
I knew it wasn't running when I bought it, but it turned over so I knew it wasn't seized.. For the SHORT money, I could live with that... LOL!

​Anyway, now knowing that, tonight I've ordered the other parts I need and once they arrive, I'll install the new flywheel key, torque down the flywheel and see where I'm at...
​As said, I'm going to start ALL over once the new key is installed.
Spark check
Compression check
​etc...

I'll keep you posted!
Thanks all!

 

[gm280]

Update....
​So I took the starter off and was going to check it out myself, but I don't have all the "Pro" tools.. So, I found a local shop and they checked it for me.
​It was good. They just replaced brushes for me too, so should be better than before.

​I'm thinking now, perhaps the struggle it had to turn the engine over, and getting a bit warm, was from the current draw trying to turn the engine over with timing basically backwards and constantly changing.. If the fuel was igniting at BDC, then the starter was trying to overcome the pressure of ignition on top of normal use...
That would explain why sometimes it turned over just fine, and then would have a hard time, then be fine again... (Flywheel slipping, timing changing).,.

​The P.O, had the fuel lines backwards (tank line to pump out, pump in to carb bowls.. :facepalm,
The steering was backwards. (If I were to turn left, the boat would have gone right.. :facepalm.
​So I have NO doubt, he probably just threw the flywheel on for a sell, and didn't torque it.. That's probably what sheared the flywheel key and here I am..
I knew it wasn't running when I bought it, but it turned over so I knew it wasn't seized.. For the SHORT money, I could live with that... LOL!

​Anyway, now knowing that, tonight I've ordered the other parts I need and once they arrive, I'll install the new flywheel key, torque down the flywheel and see where I'm at...
​As said, I'm going to start ALL over once the new key is installed.
Spark check
Compression check
​etc...

I'll keep you posted!
Thanks all!

Sounds like the PO wasn't too sharp on OB engines. However, you will know more about in now then you probably ever expected to know. But there is nothing wrong with that either. Do post back. I am interested in how everything turns out. :thumb:

 

[jbuote]

Will do GM!!
​Got my email today, and the parts are expected to arrive Friday. Of course, I'm supposed to be going away this weekend, so I probably won't get to it until Monday at least.

​Yeah.. The P.O was either clueless, or just slapped it back together to sell. (Or both)..
​In my late teens, I went to East Coast Aero Tech for a while.. Worked on horizontally opposed, even tore down and rebuilt a Jacobs 7 cylinder radial engine. Man that was fun starting up after! haha!!
Decided the personal liability of any mistakes on an aircraft (mentally for me) was not worth it, should a plane I worked on go down.. So then I spent about 5 years as an auto mechanic.. My manager at the shop always gave me the toughest issues... He told me, and I quote... "Joe, You're slow.. You are NO mechanic.. But you're one HELL of a diagnostician!" LOL

​Here I am, decades later, and I've forgotten most of what I knew then.. (Into computers now, and write software, so ....)
​Not to mention, there are differences between auto and outboards. Never really had to deal with points (rebuilt a magneto in class, but then it was plug and play, so that's long forgotten), 2 strokes etc... I decided it's best to just forget it all, and start over..
​Pretend I really don't know a thing, (which I probably don't anymore.. LOL) and ASK the stupid questions..

​So this is quite the fun little project, and it's bringing back the passion I had to "Make things work" when I was a kid...
​Thanks for putting up with my sometimes silly questions.. I have the foundation, I'm just rebuilding the knowledge structure as I go... HAHA!!

 

[jbuote]

So another update...
​Travel plans changed, so I went out and worked on the engine.
​Checked the taper again, checked inside the flywheel, all looked good.
​Installed the new key. It was snug, not loose at all, so that was good.
​Flywheel slipped right on, no hassles..

​Installed the flywheel nut. Torque spec is 100-105 ft/lbs, so I set my torque wrench to about 102.5 and torqued it down.
​Figure I'll run it a bit, then re-torque after.

​So then, I re-installed the starter. Cleaned all connections there again. Positive to terminal, and the flange bolt areas that contact the block, and of course the block too for nice shiny solid connections.

​Got set up to do the compression and spark tests again.
​Hooked up the battery, turned on the water.. (I don't like even cranking without water.. I'd like some lube to the impellor).

Got to key to start cranking for compression on Cyl #1.. And..................................
Nothing......
​No starter engaging, no clicks of solenoids, not even choke solenoid working...
​So I pull out the multi-meter and do a few checks...
​Things looked good all the up to the 20amp fuse in the positive line that then goes up the harness to the "BATT" of the key switch.

​Sooo... Tomorrow or Monday, I'll get a small supply of those fuses, and try again...
​Got dark, so I didn't get to finish my continuity checks.. I'd like to see what if anything is shorted to ground that blew the fuse...
Fix it if there is something....

​All I did, was pull flywheel, Pull starter. Reinstall flywheel, re-install starter.. Then hooked battery up.
​There isn't anything in particular I should look at is there?

​Figured I'd just start step by step and run through the wiring diagram to be sure nothing got shorted..
That's my plan if nobody has any better ideas... LOL

Till later! LOL

 

[jbuote]

And another update.....
Didn't find any dead shorts that would have caused the fuse to blow, so I installed a new fuse and guess what?

​Still lots to be done, but at least now I KNOW she runs!!!
​Still have some kind of short somewhere.. When I shut it off at the end, same symptoms.. No choke solenoid, no start..
​Fuse was blown again, so back to tracking that down.. It was in neutral but prop was spinning, so going to trace through that too to make sure it's all working as it should..

​I guess now I don't know if I let this thread die and create a new one for progress, or keep updates here....
​The original title and question for this thread was long answered.

​Thoughts on that?

Anyway...

​PROGRESS!!! LOL

 

[jbuote]

And yet another....

Still didn't find any shorts in the wiring..
​Installed new fuse, and it started, ran, shut down... Started again etc... about 5 times.
I put it away for the night... Still no blown fuse...

​So now I'm thinking.....
​I had recently replaced the ignition switch and shifter switch in the remote.
​I couldn't see spending the money on the original shift switch, so I came up with my own solution for it..

http://forums.iboats.com/forum/engi...c-shift-switch-solution-hope-it-helps-someone

​Anyway, now I'm wondering if I have an intermittent short in the control box...
​Going to pull it apart again and double check everything..

​This was the first time I've been able to reliably start the engine..
​The shifting works perfectly... I get Forward, Neutral, and revere as expected.. The push to choke works as expected...
​Tested each thing SEVERAL times today while it was running and starting like a champ!

​Anyway, that's the current update..

​Still wondering if I should let this thread die and start a new one, or keep updates here.. Original question for this title and thread has been answered a while ago..
​Just don't want to create unnecessary threads.. LOL

Advice on that?

​Thanks to ALL that contributed to helping me get to this point!!

:joyous: