Cheap VRO fix

darrylsiemer

Cadet
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
16
A few weeks ago I spent most of an afternoon first cleaning up and then trying to get a 12 year-under-an?outside-tarp-stored 35 hp jet outboard motor to start (Johnson model J50JETB (1993) ? two cylinder, 737 cc 50 HP power head driving a 35 hp-rated jet foot). Its carburetor bowls and lower crankcase were full of oil which strongly suggested that some part of its mysterious ?variable ratio oil? (VRO) oil/gas mixing system had failed before it was so-stored (abandoned). Since the total retail cost of all of the parts comprising that system (VRO, oil tank/electric pump/hoses, etc) is well over $800 and it serves no useful purpose to most people, I replaced it with a generic Chinese-made, carburetor-type (4-6 psi) electric fuel pump (EBAY $9.24 free shipping) which now feeds the engine?s carbs & primer with a 50:1 gas/oil mixture. The electric pump is turned ?ON/OFF? with a 5 amp-rated (the pump only requires 1.3 amp) single pole, single throw toggle switch mounted in a 3/8? hole drilled through the front of the motor?s cowling (the pump?s positive (red) lead is connected to the starter solenoid?s battery post & its negative wire to one side of the switch the other of which is grounded.) It works like a charm.

Comments?
 

fhhuber

Lieutenant
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Jun 19, 2014
Messages
1,365
Well... one "trick" of long term storage of an engine is to liberally squirt oil in the intake, spark plug holes and any place else you can figure out how to get oil into the engine.
Basic idea being... if its full of oil its less likely to rust.
I'd consider the oil a good thing.

So... I'd drain out all the oil that can be easily drained, then LEAVE THE PLUGS OUT, put rags over the spark plug holes to control the oil that's going to come out and turn the engine over a few times slowly then more rapidly until you are turning it as if trying to start it.

Probably best to disable power to the ignition for this.
Electronic you want to disable the power to the ignition or give the spark a path because some electronic ignitions can be damaged if there is no path for spark.

**************

Disabling the VRO and going to pre-mix is fine as long as the pump used is delivering adequate fuel.
Note that marine rated electric fuel pumps are designed to be very resistant to creating a spark. A spark (outside the combustion chamber) under the engine cowl can result in your boat becoming a bonfire.
 

Tim Frank

Vice Admiral
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Jul 29, 2008
Messages
5,333
2-3 PSI would be a safer range.
There are a number of reasons that the OMC engineers use a vacuum type fuel pump; redesigning their system and going electric is not always a good DIY adventure.
 

oldboat1

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Apr 3, 2002
Messages
9,598
Should be easy enough to test the fuel pump side of the vro, maybe borrowing a portable tank for testing. Plug the oil line and disconnect the wire harness.
 

darrylsiemer

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Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
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So far the comments mostly represent "conservative" responses to a description of an affordable to get around the engineered-in cost/reliability problems generated by OMC's approach to automatic oiling (& parts costing).

I know there are that there are "correct" ways of addressing problems like this one. I also know that many such otherwise good motors end up in garbage dumps after their owners have had to pay an expert to fix such things correctly a few times.

No rational person would deliberately fill up (not just fog) his motor's carburetors and crankcase with oil to "store" it.

If you want to use a pneumatic fuel pump instead, generic versions (made for lawn tractors) are also available at EBAY & AMAZON for about ten dollars each.

Incidentally, has anyone come up with a cheap/practical way of getting the "manual" tilt/trim system that came with this motor to actually work? .
 

jakedaawg

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Messages
4,275
See, the most likely reason that the carbs were full of oil is that someone unplugged the fuel line andnlet it run out of gas. As the fuel runs out it still pumps oil, especially if there is a slight air leak at the fitting.

Many folks dont understand this and automatically assume the vro is bad. They will overoil with a fuel restriction. There are tests that can be done.

If the fuel side is bad they can be rebuilt. They can also be replaced by a pulse pump.

Replacing with an electric that is run by a switch that the operator controls is not safe. Now, if you wire it so it only gets power when cranking and running, and add a.mercury switch for a blow over situation, then that is more acceptable.

Obviously you know a little more than the average joe, but, to post on the internet where any 15 yr old kid can find it, and possibly fill his bilge with gasoline....
 
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Tim Frank

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So far the comments mostly represent "conservative" responses to a description of an affordable to get around the engineered-in cost/reliability problems generated by OMC's approach to automatic oiling (& parts costing).
.

The comments (which you asked for in post 1) are more safety-related than anything.
But It is YOUR motor, and the tone of your posts suggests that you aren't really looking for any contradictory opinions.


There are a number of reasons that the OMC engineers use a vacuum type fuel pump; redesigning their system and going electric is not always a good DIY adventure.

One of those reasons is safety.

​You replaced a VRO system with an offshore/aftermarket item as a "cost-justified" approach. A cost-cut on a reliabilty issue is really just your concern...if it doesn't work. A cost-cut on a safety issue can affect everyone within the blast range.


2-3 PSI would be a safer range.​​
I will differ with your assesment of OMC engineering after 50 years of exposure to it...especially WRT fuel pumps.
Before I trashed an OEM pump, I'd have actually tested and verified that it was U/S....this forum has countless posts that start off "I thought the fuel pump might be bad and changed it, but now I still have the original problem". (BTW, the spec for every OMC OEM fuel pump that I have owned is 2-3 PSI at WOT.It is in all the OEM manuals... that I routinely buy. The test is not particularly difficult.)
You may well not even have had to pay the $9.95 + free shipping....plus switch plus fuse holder. :)
 

flyingscott

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
7,985
I am with jakedaawg on this the fuel line was probably disconnected to be stored and the VRO pumped oil in it.
One thing I would question is the reliability and safety of a $10 dollar Chinese fuel pump.
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
I have never figured out why people want to go with a much more complex and costly method (when done correctly) instead of just investigating the issue and replacing and/or repairing the part with a proven reliable and simple OEM type product. In this case the fuel pump.
 
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jakedaawg

Rear Admiral
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Jun 26, 2012
Messages
4,275
Where do you find the little guy eating popcorn? Thats all i gonna do; sit back and keep my mouth shut. Prolly shoulda done that in the first place, but you know me....

EDIT :popcorn: LOL
 
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darrylsiemer

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Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
16
Wow, I've already managed to **** off several "'admirals" with my description of a cheap, simple & straightforward way of getting that old dog running again. I've apparently committed the same crime in another thread related to pump impellers.

Everything designed, built, done, and sold here in America these days isn't perfect as far as its citizens, especially its poorer ones, are concerned. Outboard motors have become very difficult/expensive to fix due to 1) engineering changes that greatly complicate them but don't actually make them run better, 2) hugely inflated parts costs, and 3) information hoarding/selling by their manufacturers (service, parts, and owners manuals/bulletins should be made freely available on the internet).

If I'm not forced to walk the plank, I'll continue to offer any other suggestions that I feel some of this forum's readers might benefit from.
 
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spoilsofwar

Lieutenant Junior Grade
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Jun 29, 2011
Messages
1,124
It's a forum; you put something out there and people are going to respond for better or worse. The iBoats forums have never been a place where perceived hacks are well received, particularly if they're viewed as potentially unsafe, even if the worst-case outcome is on the unlikely end of the risk management spectrum. Im sure there are people who avoid this forum completely because of this prevailing attitude, but that doesn't make it wrong.

You want to really get lit up; go start a thread in the resto section about patching a transom. For best effect, mention using silicone and stainless plate, or something along those lines ;)
 

Fun Times

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Staff member
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May 16, 2009
Messages
8,776
If I'm not forced to walk the plank, I'll continue to offer any other suggestions that I feel some of this forum's readers might benefit from.
Hello, welcome to iboats!

Please know that in cases (topics/posts) like these, iboats general stance for posting is to always take in the seriousness consideration of everyone's safety which includes your own.

While yes there could be some alternatives at finding ways to get around an already in place component in any machinery equipment, known safety is always the first thought process here on the forums so any time a questionable alternative comes up, the over all practice of the idea comes highly into scrutinizing play so much as to depending on the criticalness of the info being published here on either iboats (or some other forums too), the topics may just end up being removed altogether even though we'd really prefer not to take that route for educational purposes especially since both sides of the how to's and why you shouldn't's have been thoroughly mentioned though yes at the end of the day, the reader or self doer has to eventually come to their own final conclusion of if they should or shouldn't proceed, and at what overall costs the procedure may bring.

The other topic you mentioned was closed due to it is preferred here on iboats that any topic older than 90 days remains an archived topic unless you happen to be the original poster was all.... For more info regarding archived topics, please see the "Help Tip" at the top of the forum page. Thank you.
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
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In your post the last thing you wrote was "comments?" So people did on the subject.

While an electric fuel pump can be used safely on an outboard, it requires a bit more thought than you gave the conversion, so the cost and hassle factor goes up, and when you add more electrical components to a wet environment it tends to become less reliable.

As mentioned earlier, you can rebuild the fuel side of the pump, or get a pump off a different model that didn't have oil injection, the parts aren't hard to find or that costly. Now you are back to a very reliable and safe system that may never need attention again.

How you talked about the oil in the motor indicated you aren't that familiar with how the pump works, or why oil may be in the motor, when you don't understand these things it's hard to reinvent the system for better results.
 

darrylsiemer

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Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
16
In the future I'll just describe my suggestion, not ask for comments from this forum's experts.

I consider forums like this to be sources of information, not another social networking opportunity.

We all take some risks in life - putting an electric fuel pump into an outboard motor isn't apt to constitute a serious threat to anyone who "drives" his boat rationally. As I've already noted, equally cheap pneumatic-type gas pumps are also readily available to anyone with access to the internet.
 

jakedaawg

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No Title

I find that if I store them like this then the carbs dont fill up with oil...
 

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GA_Boater

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In the future I'll just describe my suggestion, not ask for comments from this forum's experts.

I consider forums like this to be sources of information, not another social networking opportunity.

We all take some risks in life - putting an electric fuel pump into an outboard motor isn't apt to constitute a serious threat to anyone who "drives" his boat rationally. As I've already noted, equally cheap pneumatic-type gas pumps are also readily available to anyone with access to the internet.

Just be aware you will still get comments, no matter whether the suggestion is deemed good or bad in member's opinions. This is the nature of forums.

When invalid suggestions are made in an open forum, irrational boaters take them to heart, which makes it less of a safe source of information. We try to ensure boater have safe and happy voyages.

I hope you understand our concerns for the ideas. All of us are not as willing to try them.
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
....We all take some risks in life - putting an electric fuel pump into an outboard motor isn't apt to constitute a serious threat to anyone who "drives" his boat rationally....

This is considered by all qualified techs as one of the most dangerous things to do to a boat engine, short of taking a tin of petrol and a box of matches and going and playing on the freeway!

If you must do away with the VRO system, just put a normal OMC engine based vacuum fuel pump in it's place, and run premix 50:1 fuel. That returns it to the pre-VRO era fuel system, and keeps it safe.

The only safe way to add an electric fuel pump to a boat engine is with 'interlocks' that don't allow the pump to run unless the engine is turning. And the pump and switches MUST be 'SAE J1171' MARINE rated.

darrylsiemer In future, please keep your extremely unsafe practises to yourself. Many other forums may allow such dangerous suggestions, iboats does not.

Chris.
iboats mod team.
 
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mlaajanen

Seaman
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
68
In the future I'll just describe my suggestion, not ask for comments from this forum's experts.

I consider forums like this to be sources of information, not another social networking opportunity.

We all take some risks in life - putting an electric fuel pump into an outboard motor isn't apt to constitute a serious threat to anyone who "drives" his boat rationally. As I've already noted, equally cheap pneumatic-type gas pumps are also readily available to anyone with access to the internet.

Redesigning is usually a fun thing if your concern is money or just to make it better but there are things that is difficult to change in a good way.

All design that uses fuel have some kind of safety cut of mechanism in case of problem.
In the car there is more than one cut of for the fuel if there is a electric fuel pump.

Having the correct pressure is very important not only for the fuel consumption.

But back to the real issue, have you ever seen how big area just 5 liters of fuel on the sea will occupy, imagine what danger that is if someone having a smoke nearby if your homemade design with the fuel pump overflows, then think about 20 liters!

Lets change issue, suppose your ABS system in your car brakes due to the expensive wheel sensors that gives to low amplitude, would you design a amplifier instead of replacing the original ones due to price, and if you do that how does it feel to drive knowing that you have a design prototype that if it fails you will loose your brakes?

So now when the next guy sees your super design in this "forums like this to be sources of information" he might copy yours and then the next and so and finally maybe a deadly accident happends caused by a poor design such as yours.

Go back and fix the problem the correct way.
 
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