Lower unit noise...is it normal

[dthx]

1976 Johnson....25E76E....
I dropped the lower unit off my engine to replace the water pump.
While I was replacing the water pump, I lifted the drive shaft all the way out of the lower unit.
I don't know why I did that...I didn't need to...
Anyway..I put it back in and it seemed to go all the way down because the pin that "keys" into the water pump (I have a pin not a key) sits just above the impeller plate like it is supposed....sooo..I think its down as far as it needs to be.
I can pull the shift rod up and the engine goes into forward and the other way for reverse....
BUT.....when I turn the the drive shaft by hand, there can be heard a grinding in the gear case.
Like rubbing your knuckles over a washboard.
The lower unit oil seems light and was not completely full when I checked it (after I heard the noise).
Question:
I guess I would normally hear a little gear noise as the gears are meshing, yes?
Is this noise normal and was taking the drive shaft all the way out somehow not allowed me to simply push it back down where it's supposed to be?
I'm gonna crack the gear case...what should I look for?

 

[jimmbo]

When you pulled the drive shaft out of the gear housing one or more of the small rollers in the bearings supporting the driveshaft may have fallen out and has wedged itself against a rotating part.

 

[F_R]

If the roughness goes away when you lift lightly on the shaft as you spin it, all is well. Otherwise, the weight of the shaft presses the gears together and they make that noise. When the motor is actually running the gears thrust themselves away from each other, clearance is normal, and operation is quiet. All this is normal and to be expected.

 

[jimmbo]

I stand corrected

 

[dthx]

Thank you both...
I think I'm OK....symptoms are as F_R suggests.....Whew!
Dont want to tackle anything concerning gearcase if I can help it without some more experience.

 

[dthx]

I finished replacing the water pump....
Put the o-ring on the top of the drive shaft....a little grease.
replaced the rubber grommet in the impeller housing to mate up with the copper tube
New drive shaft pin.
impeller fanning the right direction.
stabbed the lower unit back in.
mated the shift lever into the clip.
Still a little gap
pushed it up....closed the gap
Bolted it up.
Put the engine in a barrel filled with H20
Got in the boat and pulled the rope.
Flywheel would not turn.
Put the engine in neutral....prop turns....
Put the engine in forward....prop is locked up...
I'm sure I have something in a bind.
The motor ran fine before I took the lower unit off to replace the water pump.
I had no reason to crack the gear case to look at it.....but there's the "slight grinding noise".....that may be normal (above)...I thinks its OK
The engine was running 15 years ago and has set up for that long.
Previous owner had a good mechanic do an "overhaul" years ago before sitting up.
The points and condensers. etc were new when I look at them.
The engine started with one pull before I took the lower unit off to look at the water pump.
I doubt that the engine has seen much use....just neglect as it has been sitting......
What do some of you think..?
I'm gonna take it apart again tomorrow.

 

[oldboat1]

sounds like it could be the shift link connection (assembly/connection not quite correct) -- would check that first, and correct if appropriate.

[edit. i.e., shift rod link]

 

[F_R]

Is the flywheel actually locking up in gear? Or is it just a matter of you can't pull the rope? If the latter, it sounds like it could be the neutral start lockout. However if the former and the flywheel actually won't turn, that is a puzzler. Did you take the lower unit apart, yes or no?

Anytime the drive shaft rotates, the gears also rotate--whether in gear or in neutral. And you say the prop shaft rotates in neutral. So what else is there? (??)

 

[dthx]

I'm going to get some help this morning from one of my fishing buddies that has a lot of experience with engines. He's been helping me all along with this engine.
I've stayed with it because I think it will be really cool to have a 76 Johnson that starts and runs well. We looked at the engine ....checked compression...and Ken (my friend) cleaned and set the points. We cleaned the carb and the engine started and ran fine.
Then I got a new water pump and that is where we are now. I think it's something like you suggest. The engine is in gear or something...or the shift link is out of whack.
I'm sitting here on the couch waiting for Ken to start his day...I really appreciate the help from all of you on the site.
I'll keep you posted on what we find today...we're gonna fix it.
The prop does rotate in neutral....so there must be some kind of linkage problem.....

 

[racerone]

Can you turn the flywheel by hand.---Yes or no?

 

[F_R]

I don't think it is the shift linkage. That only moves it into or out of gear. Nothing whatsoever to do with locking anything up. Except for operating the neutral lockout lever on the recoil starter, as I previously suggested. Be glad you have a knowledgeable buddy. Take care of him.

 

[oldboat1]

two beer buddy -- after the motor is running....

If the problems began after the l.u. work, I would pull it off again. Check manually to be sure it's shifting correctly. If OK, reassemble making sure the shift rod is fully inserted in the coupler, and water tube is inserted in grommet. The lower unit should go into place without forcing it (may have to tug the rope a little or turn the prop to get the shaft gears to mesh). If the shift lever is in forward or reverse position for assembling, will need to shift into neutral to pull the cord (lockout F_R describes).

 

[dthx]

OK....it's running great!
Here's what happened.
Lower unit OK
Gear case OK
Water pump installed and working like a champ....so all that is OK.
The engine has a lock out so that you cant start unless the throttle is at low rpm.
I replaced the shift and throttle cables and instead of matching the cable adjustment to the throttle set up...I matched the set up to the cable adjustment.
SO....when the throttle (hand lever) appeared... to be in the "start position" ...it was not in that position on the engine.....so the engine thought that the throttle was set to high and the linkage would not let the fly wheel turn.......
The rope container has some ears on it and if this "non start adjustment" is not set correctly...there is an interference and you can't pull the rope.
Also this "non start adjustment" affects the neutral switch...so you cant energize the starter either.....
My buddy told me that I had the wagon in front of the horse...I should have left all the set up alone and adjusted the cables to match it ...instead of the other way around..
I really learned a lot on this project.
I hope I've explained it so that someone else will maybe be helped.
I'm giving it a real run out this weekend and will try to catch some sand bass ........I'll be thinking of all of you.
We also found that the neutral switch had a wire missing.,,,that's fixed now...
Thanks
D.

 

[racerone]

I think there is only one wire going to the nuetral switch.

 

[F_R]

I think there is only one wire going to the nuetral switch.

Exactly, and if he grounded the second tab on the switch, he defeated the switch's purpose.

 

[racerone]

You have to admit wires and invisible electicity is so confusing.--See it all the time on forums.

 

[dthx]

Hmmmmmmm......I'll have to look at my service manual.....I think you may be right....I remember thaty .there are two tabs ..one fore and one aft.....now that I think of it...when I took off the electrical harness (it was rotted away at the on off switch)
Anyway...now that you mention it......I seem to remember ONE wire going from the N Switch to the starter relay.....maybe the bottom pole of the smaller connections.
Thanks.....something to look at again.
many thanks.

 

[dthx]

It starts in neutral though......thanks......will look this weekend.