Latest issue 87 'Rude...motor wont start at all now

[urbanredneck]

Hi guys.

Yes, this is my 3rd or so post lately here. Finally getting this motor dialed in, have no other resources, so i appreciate y'alls patience.

1987 Evinrude E40ELCUD 40hp w/vro
(Electric start, factory OMC steering setup, etc.)

So anyway, I was on the river for...about 8 hours yesterday. Motor ran great. 0 issues. Was about 6 miles away from my launch point. Zoomed back at about... 85% throttle, (WOT then backed off a bit.)
She did great. I get up to the dock, put it in neutral and bam, shes done.
I sat in the slip for 2 hours troubleshooting it and trying to start it, no avail. (DIDNT SOUND RIGHT EITHER) .

What I checked:
Fuel in the tank yes
Oil in VRO yes
Battery Good, yes
Spark good, my opinion yes (switched em.out with another set, used, but known to be in working condition)
Checked 20a fuse, good
All electrical good

Might be missing something. But I checked everything the manual said to check. This sucker just died and has no life. As i said prior, it doesn't "sound" normal when trying to crank.
It didn't feel abnormally hot (i have overheat alarm any way)

The key weird point is: ran GREAT all day and near WOT, soon as shift handle went down to neutral, poof. Done.

So again I come to you guys. Y'all have given me tons of good info, i feel this motor is almost all set, assuming something catastrophic didn't occur.

Thanks for the help.

 

[oldboat1]

sound when cranking: slow or uneven? battery or compression, maybe? Could be a timing issue if you've had the flywheel on and off (alignment with the key and proper torque).

 

[urbanredneck]

sound when cranking: slow or uneven? battery or compression, maybe? Could be a timing issue if you've had the flywheel on and off (alignment with the key and proper torque).

No, just sounded...off. hard to explain. Just sounded different then normal.

And I've never touched the timing or flywheel.

The ol thing was singing all day. Cruised back for miles without as much as a cough.

Again. Soon as i dropped that control arm back to neutral, it died and never regained life.

I have a big trolling motor battery that i paralleled into my starting battery, no dice.

I hoping something didnt seize. But with how sensitive the oil alarms are on this thing, id be very suprised. And would think it'd stop during a high rpm and not wait until i put it in neutral.

 

[oldboat1]

If water flow changed, change in sound might be noticed (exhaust resonance in the leg). Definitely not overheating, though(?) Think plastic bag or other piece of trash -- something blocking (or blocked) the intake. guessing....

 

[urbanredneck]

If water flow changed, change in sound might be noticed (exhaust resonance in the leg). Definitely not overheating, though(?) Think plastic bag or other piece of trash -- something blocking (or blocked) the intake. guessing....

Im not sure if the overheating thing was a question or not. But no of course, i couldn't be positive. I just know waterpump was pissin and i got no alarms. They work, but i guess that still proves nothing.

I did run against some rocks throughout the day. Skeg more than likely took the brunt.

And.that was hours earlier. She ran great all day. if it wouldn't run after i bottomed out, i may consider that.

Its just odd, it took miles of abuse, cookin right along. again, all i did was pull out of gear and it was toast.

 

[juno pierrat]

start the basic diagnosis again, compression report numbers, spark gap test at 7/16, and maybe remove fly wheel nut and see if key way still lines up.

 

[racerone]

You can not tell about the flywheel key by just removing the nut !!!

 

[urbanredneck]

I will indeed run through all the standard tests again.

I just figured there had to be a connection with how the motor failed and when it happened. Maybe something with the gearbox? Maybe electrical controls?

Something that would cause an otherwise good running motor to die and never re start just by back-engaging into neutral .

There's got to be something more...specific, to look at. I Just don't have the knowledge yet...

 

[Rapio]

Basics of internal combustion engine: Fuel, compression & ignition all at the correct time. Fuel in the tank is good. Is it getting to the cylinders? Spark plug change is good. Are they getting voltage. I doubt if your compression quit. This may help.

 

[urbanredneck]

I will be running compression test again tomorrow and report back. My boat is stored at a different location from where my head rests, so.

I also have a feeling im not going to have a problem in that area. Must be related to me engaging into neutral. That, or some other extremely unlucky and coincidental failure unrelated to the shifting bits happened to occur at that exact moment.

Man, always something. ...

 

[Silvertip]

Nothing is seized. If it was the engine would not spin over on the starter. Now once it is running, if it dies when put in gear then yes, the lower may need attention. You said you have fuel and spark but you don't know that. You do know there is fuel in the tank but it needs to get to the cylinders. You changed the plugs but that means nothing if they aren't sparking. The ignition switch may have decided to take a dump causing the two "M" terminals to remain connected which is how the engine is stopped. Those two terminals must be "open" when trying to start the engine. Since the engine died when shifted/throttled down, that would imply the problem is electrical and likely in the control box. Disconnect the large control cable plug at the engine and then jump the starter manually. If she fires the problem is in the control box. You will need to reconnect the plug to kill the engine, or else pull a couple of plug wires.

 

[sutor623]

I wonder if your neutral safety switch just decided that it had it's last hoorah.

 

[urbanredneck]

Nothing is seized. If it was the engine would not spin over on the starter. Now once it is running, if it dies when put in gear then yes, the lower may need attention. You said you have fuel and spark but you don't know that. You do know there is fuel in the tank but it needs to get to the cylinders. You changed the plugs but that means nothing if they aren't sparking. The ignition switch may have decided to take a dump causing the two "M" terminals to remain connected which is how the engine is stopped. Those two terminals must be "open" when trying to start the engine. Since the engine died when shifted/throttled down, that would imply the problem is electrical and likely in the control box. Disconnect the large control cable plug at the engine and then jump the starter manually. If she fires the problem is in the control box. You will need to reconnect the plug to kill the engine, or else pull a couple of plug wires.

This is what i was looking for. Something concrete that related to how the failure occurred. thank you sir.

Couple observations and questions. I still have yet to get er turned over since i put it in neutral at the dock this weekend. Won't start at all.

And yes, i will be confirming spark and all that stuff before i go any further. Im sure its all fine, highly unlikely for both cylinders to both lose spark at the exact same second. Plugs looked great too.

So, i have heard about jumping the starter solenoid many times before. I am however clueless on the task. Is there any information you can forward me? Even a post on here, or some general information on how to accomplish this?

Thanks again man

 

[sutor623]

And yes, i will be confirming spark and all that stuff before i go any further. Im sure its all fine, highly unlikely for both cylinders to both lose spark at the exact same second.

No its not. If the neutral safety switch is bad then it wont allow spark to make it to the plugs. Just like if the engine is in gear and you try to start it it wont start. But it think if thats the case the starter wont even engage.

Another instance when you will lose spark on both cylinder is if the kill switch lanyard somehow got pulled out. That switch can go bad too.

 

[urbanredneck]

No its not. If the neutral safety switch is bad then it wont allow spark to make it to the plugs. Just like if the engine is in gear and you try to start it it wont start. But it think if thats the case the starter wont even engage.

Another instance when you will lose spark on both cylinder is if the kill switch lanyard somehow got pulled out. That switch can go bad too.

Thats what i was going to clarify. On this motor, if its not in neutral, it wont even try and turn over at all. Just Clicks.

 

[sutor623]

Jumping the solenoid and removing the boat side electrical for test purposes is easy. What you do is remove the 20A fuse then disconnect the red plug. After that you go to the starter solenoid, and take a jumper wire from the red battery side on the solenoid and jump it to the post on the solenoid that has the small yellow/red wire. This will crank the starter over and start up the motor if there are no issues on that side of the woods.

To kill the motor you can either jump the kill switch wire from the pack to ground (black/yellow wire), or you can simply turn the red lever on the primer solenoid 180 degrees. This will effectively "flood" the cylinder out until the engine bogs down and stalls. If you get the engine to start by this method, you issue is with the control box/wiring on the boat side.

I recommend buying a remote starter for this test. They are $15 at advanced auto. I like them to check compression also, because you can keep the key switch off and test compression right there at the back of the motor. This will also allow you to spin the motor over without having to ground the spark plug leads.

 

[oldboat1]

Thats what i was going to clarify. On this motor, if its not in neutral, it wont even try and turn over at all. Just Clicks.

In my understanding, neutral switch interrupts the starting circuit (starter won't engage). The kill switch (lanyard and clip) prevents spark -- starter will work. It might be significant that you get clicking if trying to start when in gear. I'm not sure what might follow from that, if anything. I usually associate clicking with the starter solenoid.

I guess you could get solenoid clicking if the neutral switch was between the solenoid and the starter -- current would go to the solenoid, but interrupted before it hits the starter. Would be similar to bad brushes in the starter (solenoid switch clicks, but connection dies at starter).

But your safety switch would be in the control box, ahead of the solenoid at the motor -- should be silent. I'm not sure what clicks when you try to start in gear. What do you figure is clicking?

 

[flyingscott]

Neutral safety switch cuts power to the solenoid there will be no click if it is engaged are you pushing the key in and the primer is working that will click.

 

[urbanredneck]

In my understanding, neutral switch interrupts the starting circuit (starter won't engage). The kill switch (lanyard and clip) prevents spark -- starter will work. It might be significant that you get clicking if trying to start when in gear. I'm not sure what might follow from that, if anything. I usually associate clicking with the starter solenoid.

I guess you could get solenoid clicking if the neutral switch was between the solenoid and the starter -- current would go to the solenoid, but interrupted before it hits the starter. Would be similar to bad brushes in the starter (solenoid switch clicks, but connection dies at starter).

But your safety switch would be in the control box, ahead of the solenoid at the motor -- should be silent. I'm not sure what clicks when you try to start in gear. What do you figure is clicking?

I cant even be 100% sure if anything did click. I just know i tried starting it while in gear and i got nothing. Kind of like turning a vehicle over with a completely dead battery. no crank, nothing.

The other thing ill touch on is this: if im getting starter action from using the key, electric start, that should rule out ignition issues, no?
Everything seems to be operating. The little gear pops up and contacts the fly wheel, everything moves like it should.

Im hoping it is just a failure in the dead mans switch inside the control box. Considering the failure involved me swinging down the throttle arm, it makes me believe there was some electrical freak out inside the control box. I mean, the motor didn't even sputter or bog when i dropped it to neutral. Its as if you just turned the motor off. Boom. It was done.

Iv been getting this motor dialed in for a while now. Ive ALWAYS been able to start it, even if it took awhile. Crazy thing is, she ran the best she ever has before this failure.

 

[flyingscott]

If it turns over the neutral safety switch is fine. Just because the starter works does not mean the ignition is working you could have a bad ignition switch/kill switch. Did you ever pull the flywheel and does the spark jump 7/16"