Nissan 8 Water in Oil

[pvanv]

I have a 2007 Nissan 8 hp 4-stroke (NSF 8 A3, serial ending in XG) that came in to our shop in August because it didn't start. Customer said it "made a grinding noise". This is an electric start tiller model. Customer claimed less than 3 hours new, and just trolling.

I found that it had liquid locked from an over-full crankcase. The oil had some fuel smell, and was way over full and creamy with some water contamination. The grinding noise was from the sheared woodruff key at the flywheel. Lower plug was fouled.

Naturally, I assumed he had overfilled the oil (they seem to make oil easily when new and run at low RPM), especially if the owner puts too much oil in, since it only needs 0.8 quarts. Since the oil had some fuel smell, that seemed to confirm break-in blow-by, etc.

Flushed the oil, new plugs, replaced the magneto key, torqued the flywheel, and tank tested with no problems. Returned the motor with a non-warranty bill, because the Tohatsu warranty guys agreed that the problem was the owner's fault. (The customer wasn't happy about the bill, of course), and gave the customer "the talk" about proper oil level, proper break-in, etc. I thought all was done.

It came back in early October with the "same problem". This time the crankcase was so full that it bubbled out of the dipstick hole. The flywheel needed replaced, because the taper was so enlarged. When I drained the oil, a few ounces of clear water came out of the bottom. That's a LOT of water. Way too much for just condensation. Hmm.

According to the factory, water can only get into the crankcase through a bad bottom gasket, and bad head gasket, or submersion. Makes sense to me. I had a new rope-start flywheel handy, so again flushed the oil, put on the new flywheel, and tank tested for a full day. No water in the oil, no oil gain. Good compression, Running perfectly.

Obviously, I haven't done any repair to correct the water issue, but it doesn't get water in the oil during tank testing, and it runs like the head gasket is good. I ordered a new electric-start flywheel, and gave the customer the motor (with the rope start flywheel) to use for a week or 2 to see if he still has any problems.

I've called the owner a few times to check up on the motor. He says that he checks the oil regularly, and it doesn't have any water in it, and the mtor runs fine. He would like me to set the idle a little higher, but that's all. He also wants this covered under warranty, and would like a warranty refund of his original bill.

The factory feels that the customer may have a security problem. Vandalism or something. So they want me to charge him again. My boss wonders whether this trolling motor gets submerged at some point, either when running the main motor, or when launching. As far as I know, this is the only motor on the aluminum fishing boat. The customer denies any submersion, of course.

Am I missing something? I want to help the customer, but at the same time, I have to agree with the Tohatsu factory guys.

Thanks,
Paul

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

I suspect he's turning the engine upside down(or close to it) when taking it on or off the big boat...Give him the lecture about how the powerhead can never be lower than the lower unit or water will go where the Gods of Outboards never entended it to flow. I would then explain to him that a warranty is not the same thing as a guarantee. Also, switch him out of the 10w-40 oil that I suspect he is using and put him into a 10w-30. He isn't using synthetic is he?

 

[gss036]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

<>>

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

Seriously?

 

[Sea Rider]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

I think that you can avoid unnecesary 100% customer/dealer claims by teaching new clients what to do, whay not to do issues in a short dealer/customer outboard course, if possible include a water test, break engine procedures correct oil/gas ratio in case 2 strokes, etc to see if client is doing things well. Sometimes clients will claim all sorts of issues incorrectly done by them under warranty, this must not be so.

Happy Boating

 

[gss036]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

><>

 

[pvanv]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

Training does have a lot of merit. At our dealership, we service the heck out of the customers. We tank test every motor -- a full PDI. We toss in a bottle of good fuel stabilizer with the motor, and we ask the owner to call if any questions at all. We also do winterization, storage, and spring setup for many of our clients. Our customers don't have many problems.

This 8 horse came from a big box mail order joint, and the motor never had a PDI. The owner brought it to us after he had problems because we're the local Tohatsu/Nissan service dealer. So we never had the chance to train the owner before a problem cropped up.

The question of how he got water in the oil TWICE remains. Our Warranty rep at Farmers Branch still feels it's a customer issue. The customer still feels it's a warranty problem.

Fact is, I didn't do anything to fix the water-in-the-motor issue, yet the problem seems to be gone.

TohatsuGuru has a possible cause, but I'm not convinced yet. Will call the owner to see if he ever inverts the motor.

Any other ideas how this might have happened?

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

Short of the guy adding water to the oil because he thought it was thirsty...Block problem could do it too. But, the engine would run like crap if that was the case. The problem is amost certainly from him getting that lower unit higher than the block. He'll deny it of course. Consumers almost allways lie when confronted about what they have done wrong. The best you can expect is that the "problem" just won't show back up again.

 

[walexa]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

What about this possibility:

4-strokes are typically heavier than their 2-stroke counterparts, so typically sit lower in the water at the transom. I believe the Hondas have an upper exhaust port that is not supposed to be below the waterline. If his outboard has this, and the outboard is shut down warmed up, especially a few times per outing, as the motor cools could it not siphon water up somehow? I realize it would have to get through the exhaust valve and past the rings, but I guess it could happen.

Also, has the t-stat been checked? Too cold of a t-stat could cause more condensation problems than normal.

So far as warranty, I believe the benefit should go to the customer until it is 100% clear they are at fault. I can't imagine him storing the outboard upside down, although I'm sure stranger things have happened.

Waylan

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

Nope, not possible. The problem is not that the engine is being stored upside down. I think it likely that the consumer is turning the engine 120 degrees when he is carrying it. I see it often enough when people bring their engines in for repair Right hand on the carrying handle at waist level, left arm hugging the lower unit to their chest as they come in with a big frown on their face saying the engine has water in the crankcase. I disagree about giving the benefit of the doubt to the consumer too. A warranty covers a defect in material or workmanship. Absent defect, it would be unfair to hold a manufacturer responsible.

In this case there is no sign of any damage so no parts replacement or engine replacement would occur regardless of why the water got there. If the consumer is responsible for the condition then the consumer is responsible to pay the dealer for his time and efforts to test the engine.

Always remember the differences between a warranty, a guarantee and insurance.

 

[gss036]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

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[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

Not a theory. Simple fact. Outboards, all brands, all models, have residual water left in the block. Gravity is the only thing that keeps that water from flowing into odd places. Gravity is the only thing keeping the oil from flowing into odd places in 4-strokes. Defeat gravity by inverting the engine over x degrees(varies as to model) and you wind up with odd problems.

 

[pvanv]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

The customer has finished his 2-week test, using my spare rope-start flywheel. No water in the oil. I installed the new electric-start flywheel, changed oil and plugs, and tank tested. The motor runs perfectly, as usual. So, still, I have not done any repair to cure the water-in-the-oil issue, yet the problem is gone. Hmm.

In discussion with Farmers Branch, the factory warranty rep suggested sabotage. He said that he has heard of cases where a neighbor doesn't like the owner, and has done things like put water in the motor. This is unlikely. The customer uses this as a trolling auxiliary, never takes it off the boat, and keeps his boat on the trailer in a locked, fenced yard. He also has a dog.

So... it's clear that the motor is, and always was, mechanically correct, since I have not done any repairs to fix the water-in-oil issue. It seems that the motor does not get inverted, not even to 90 degrees tilt; It seems unlikely that it has had sabotage; It's unlikely that it was submerged. Yet water did get in there somehow. Twice. But no more.

Farmers Branch knows very well, that as a small dealership, we service the heck out of our customers, and none of our customers has ever had issues like this. Since this was a big-box mail-order purchase, and the new motor never had a PDI, it's understandable that the customer might have made a mistake. The first time. So it made sense to charge him the first time, which I did, even though the customer felt it should have been warranty.

Farmers Branch wants me to charge the customer for the flywheel replacement, since there is no evidence of a manufacturing defect. If I do that, the customer will hit the roof, might sue Nissan Marine, and surely will bad-mouth our dealership and the brand. He's a local cop, and It wouldn't surprise me if our employees started getting "extra" traffic tickets as well. Maybe it's time for me to ask the factory for a "Goodwill" fix -- at least for the parts. I can't see where it would be fair for our dealership to eat the flywheel replacement. But at the same time, I can't really ask the factory to consider it a warranty issue.

 

[gss036]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

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[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

This is an opinion.

You have three choices:

1) Let Tohatsu/Nissan get screwed because they have money.

2) Allow your dealership to get screwed to prevent your dishonest customer(if you fear his wrath he's scum and shouldn't be a cop) from sabotaging your reputation or worse.

3) Hold your customer responsible for his own dumb actions.

I would go with number three as that is the morally correct choice.

Absent a defect it's your customers fault. That's cut and dried. There is no gray area. If the engine had a defective part the problem(water in oil) would not have stopped. The flywheel failure was caused by the consumer trying to start the engine after it was locked. Clear abuse. It's an unfortunate situation for all concerned, but the consumer is the responsible party when the consumer causes the problem...Even when they do so through ignorance.

 

[gss036]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

<>>This just has gotten too personal. Sorry.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

Where do I begin?

"Your are sure quick to give such an opinion"

It doesn't require any time to make a decision about this. There is nothing wrong with the engine. Therefore, the problem is with the engine operator. If at some point the engine problem can be pinned on a defect(if it ever occurs again), then I will immediately be the first to say that Tohatsu should pay for it...They would too.

"I have always believed that some things are never as they appear to be, so a quick assumption can almost always be wrong"

I'm really observant and have a great deal of experience with outboards...I find that things are usually exactly as they appear to be and that my assumptions are usually correct. That's not arrogance. That's confidence in my own ability.

"You are condemning this man because he is a police officer, that is pretty strong language and I would think an apology is in order."

The dealer was the one that said " He's a local cop, and It wouldn't surprise me if our employees started getting "extra" traffic tickets as well." I Never condemned him because he is a police officer and I deeply resent your remarks. If anyone is owed an apology it's me from you for your remarks.

"when there just may be a plausible explanation."

What plausible explanation? There is none other than consumer abuse.

"So far every answer is just a theory, as no one has been able to find "fault" with the motor or the customer, just assumptions that it his fault"

Of course it's theory. But, absent a fault with the engine(basic science and mechanics) it defaults to consumer error as that is the most logical reason.

"From my perspective for the value of the motor, that the man could probably file a claim in small claims court and win hands down w/o somebody showing that he is at fault for this unwanted problem."

Any thing is possible....Judges hand down oddball verdicts everyday. But, absent defect on the engine it cannot be the manufacturers fault. You are very quick to want to spend a manufacturers money on consumer caused problems. That money comes from other consumers in the form of higher prices that they have to pay for products. That belongs in the realm of insurance, not warranty.

"It makes for good discussion, but really a bad example for a bad business decision. One Sure Thing though, really poor customer service for a reputable business. In the community I live in, they would not stay in business for long. Customers do talk, the more talk, the worse the reputation gets"

Not a penny for extortion as been our company policy since 1947....We are still going strong. I think that you should reavaluate your idea that a consumer is in the right unless proven wrong. It's that kind of populist nonsense that has driven the world into a sliding soclialism over the last 70 years. I believe in personal responsibility for one's own actions. I do not want to pay for the stupidity of others by paying more for products and I therefore refuse to hold manufacturers responsible problems not of their own making.

On a side note. Do you have some sort of problem with me you would like to get off your chest? Taking a shot at me is a lot like peeing on yourself. It may make you feel warm and fuzzy, but everyone else just notices that you smell.

 

[pvanv]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

As the servicing dealer's tech, I question the validity of the statement "It makes for good discussion, but really a bad example for a bad business decision. One Sure Thing though, really poor customer service for a reputable business. In the community I live in, they would not stay in business for long. Customers do talk, the more talk, the worse the reputation gets"

Our small dealership survives on our customer service reputation, and has done so for a third of a century. We are very well regarded, both by our customers and the factory, as providing excellent customer service. We are the ones who ended up servicing a motor that was sold not by us, but by a bog box store -- with no PDI, and no consultation about sizing, setup, prop selection, break-in, operation nor maintenance. We have been very timely, extremely accurate, painfully honest, and very flexible with this customer. We even gave the owner the use of a test part for a couple of weeks. No Charge. That allowed him to finish up the season. That's good customer service.

Thinking all this through, there is no evidence that the motor ever had any defect. Based on that fact, I will bill the customer accordingly. While I'm sure he won't be happy, facts are facts. This motor has never had a manufacturing defect. If he wants, I will go on a test run with him, at no charge. Clearly, it is impossible to get water contamination of the oil in the test tank. Obviously the owner has done something differently. Witnessing a test launch may provide a clue. Regardless, the fact remains that there is no manufacturing defect.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

I see your wish was granted

 

[pvanv]

Re: Nissan 8 Water in Oil

Have you been in touch with Farmers Branch within the last day? They decided to Goodwill the flywheel. My thoughts are that the *owner's* wish was granted. He had *also* wanted Tohatsu/Nissan to pay for his original repair. I flat out denied that request, and will consider his original service as his cost of PDI. Seems fair. Will know more in the spring. Hopefully the "problem" goes away.