Engin Basement Gasket leaking

Plandeck

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
115
leak could be the missing o ring on the shift rod or the bent prop shaft at the lipped oil seal (I called it an o ring)...where would you get a shop manual?...its a bit late...I use a Seloc..not great but always had enough information to get the job done...(I'll make sure I post a photo of my LU monster when installed)...thanks for all your advice.
 

km1125

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
496
You can order a manual just about anywhere you can order parts, and I second the recommendation. I got one when I bought my (used) motor and have referenced it MANY times.

O-rings are quite different in function and placement than shaft seals.

You could do a pressure test (as outlined in the service manual) to determine exactly where the leak is/was occurring and only have to change those parts, instead of just guessing. It is quite effective, as the air will leak in or out way before water or lubricating oil will.
 

pvanv

Admiral
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
6,509
leak could be the missing o ring on the shift rod or the bent prop shaft at the lipped oil seal (I called it an o ring)...where would you get a shop manual?...its a bit late...I use a Seloc..not great but always had enough information to get the job done...(I'll make sure I post a photo of my LU monster when installed)...thanks for all your advice.
Tohatsu Factory Service manuals are available from any Tohatsu dealer -- iBoats is not a dealer, unfortunately. The aftermarket manuals are best used as fuel for the wood stove.
I highly doubt that your cam rod bushing is missing an o-ring. it is located in a groove inside the bore of the bushing -- rides between the cam rod and the nylon bushing (but of course, you would already know that if you had a proper manual!) 90% of the diagnosis problems on this project are due to your inexperience, and unwillingness to accept the assistance of members who are helping you (for free!)
 

Plandeck

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
115
Having some trouble fitting the forward gear with the pinion...is this an exercise in patience?...some trick here? Forward gear first then pinion wont fit, pinion first forward gear wont...inserting them together and they just don't seem to want to mesh...
 

Plandeck

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
115
never mind that...the forward gear wasn't seated...I needed to use the prop shaft to push it all the way in...so all assembled with new HP 4 bIade prop...only need to fill it with gear lube, but I do have 1 part left over...small metal ring popped out when I removed the double lip seal at the end of the prop shaft...doesn't appear on any parts diagrams I can find...the new seal went in without it. Should I worry?
 

pvanv

Admiral
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
6,509
"small metal ring popped out when I removed the double lip seal at the end of the prop shaft"
Is it the
369640320MWASHER,BEVEL GEAR C

Is it part of the old oil seal? Describe it, including color and dimensions. There is a possibility you have left a part out of the prop shaft assembly.
 

Plandeck

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
115
No Title

it popped out as I removed the oil seal....not on any parts diagram...between the bearing and the seal somewhere...between 22-1 and 22-4 on the diagram.
 

Attachments

  • photo254930.jpg
    photo254930.jpg
    139.1 KB · Views: 0
  • photo254931.jpg
    photo254931.jpg
    100.7 KB · Views: 0

Plandeck

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
115
No Title

Attached is the rebuilt UL with HP prop and new prop shaft (there's another reason for saildrive - no opportunity to set the outboard down on its prop bending the shaft)...looks good huh? How do my plugs look after 1 season? They are NGK DCPR7E, not 6E as specified...they worked perfectly all season...any idea what the difference is between 6E and 7E?...lastly the ohmmeter gave a .0 reading between the solenoid choke lead and ground...in other words no resistance...I assume this means its burned out...nothing to do but replace right?
 

Attachments

  • photo254941.jpg
    photo254941.jpg
    80.8 KB · Views: 0
  • photo254942.jpg
    photo254942.jpg
    99.6 KB · Views: 0
Last edited:

pvanv

Admiral
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
6,509
It is situations like this that explain why many folks (such as Elvin) have left active engagement on this forum. It seems that it's time I also left.

Are you saying that you were able to order and receive your Factory service manual, and study it; then sandblast, etch, epoxy coat, and antifoul-paint the LU; as well as replacing the water pump, prop shaft, and all o-rings/seals, and re-install the LU in less than a week? Sounds like some horrible shortcuts have been taken. The blasting and etching and epoxy coating really need to be done with the LU apart of course.

Merely setting an 8/9.8 on its prop would not bend the prop shaft; DROPPING it might. Such abuse is ridiculous, and is no excuse for a saildrive; Dropping the LU itself could also bend the prop shaft. The gasoline OMC saildrives of decades ago were abandoned for myriad reasons... some of which you are now encountering. The more modern diesel units from Yanmar and Volvo are completely different form those early units that you are mimicking; they are essentially inboards, but mounted to right-angle gear boxes so they don't have shaft stuffing. However, as you have discovered, they are not maintenance free, and the seals do need servicing periodically. Once your gaiter leaks and the boat sinks, you will understand why the remaining SD manufacturers have gone to so much effort to use double seals, and rig water intrusion alarms between them. And of course there is the corrosion issue, which you have also discovered.

If you had any clue at all about how NGK numbers their plugs, you would understand that the number is the heat range.
Why on earth would anyone in the civilized world run the wrong plugs, knowing that incorrect plugs have destroyed many an outboard by burning a piston?
Your plugs seem to be wet with oil, but that might be expected, since they are too cold for the application.

If you had any clue at all about how an ohm meter works, and what resistance is, you would never ask that question.
Zero ohms is a dead short; in other words, no resistance... as in a complete piece of wire with no break in it. That is CONDUCTIVITY, which is in fact what you want in a good solenoid.
INFINITE ohms would be NO conductivity... a burnt out coil reading. That would mean a bad solenoid coil.
Again, you are not properly educated/qualified to do this work.

You must use an analog ohm meter to get that reading, and you need to check for the correct procedure in the Factory service manual (on page 8-20, BTW), which you no doubt don't even own. I have little doubt that you have not tested the circuit to determine whether you are getting proper 12v to the solenoid when triggering the choke.
 

Plandeck

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
115
what about the metal ring?..."horrible short cut" was careful grinder removal to bare aluminum instead of sandblasting...I used zinc primer (which I know from stripping and refinishing the steel keel 5 years ago) and chose not to fare with epoxy which is a pain...then final painting with West Marine zinc based anti-foulant paint...yes about 1-1/2 weeks for the rebuild $250 including new prop, shaft gasket, rings and seal...I wonder what is preventing the solenoid choke from showing any life since you say the Ohm reading is the one I want...worked fine for about a year, then nothing...as far as sinking goes...it is always a possibility and I am on a mooring rather than a dock...happens to a couple of boats in the harbor each year...in 2011 there were 20 boats driven off their moorings (includng my 1st boat) and destroyed in a pile at one end of the harbor due to a ferocious North Easter in late October (8 foot waves in the harbor- my mast and Honda outboard to this day lie somewhere at the bottom of Chicago's Monroe Harbor). But this boat of mine now has installed 2 bilge pumps, an automatic electric one boosted by 6 solar panels and a manual one operated from the cockpit, the harbor is monitored constantly by the tender drivers bringing sailors out to their boats, (sinking boats are quickly noticed)...and if guru status isn't enough to keep you from leaving the forum...then affordability for those of us servicing our Nissan motor and keeping our boats on the water might move your heart.
 
Last edited:

pvanv

Admiral
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
6,509
That ring looks like you messed up the disassembly and reassembly, and left a part out, as I suggested. Back in post 46.
Better pull it back apart and make sure that you have the correct washer in the prop shaft assembly, as I previously noted.
Specifically, confirm that you have the special washer that fits between the C bevel gear and the clutch dog, as I previously noted. Back in post 46. Again.
Oh yeah, there is also a shim that rides as a thrust washer ahead of the bevel gear A. But that has a larger ID, as it fits on the gear hub.
Still, better confirm that you have it all assembled properly. Again.

"it popped out as I removed the oil seal....not on any parts diagram...between the bearing and the seal somewhere...between 22-1 and 22-4 on the diagram."

No. You were so ham-fisted, that you dropped it when pulling the prop shaft out, and then found it after driving the prop shaft seal out.
It is on the parts diagram. And I identified it for you -- complete with part number -- several posts ago.
But you are such an unqualified dolt that you failed to notice it... and even after my advice and scolding, you failed to reinstall it.
So my advice now is to pull the LU apart, and install the 369640320M washer correctly.
As an alternative, you could take/ship the LU to a qualified technician.

Or, if you prefer... continue to ignore our professional help, and just fire it up and blow it up.
Then buy a new LU.
They are in stock. Part number 3V1Q873015. MSRP is about $730. Your option.

Yes, horrible short cut.

There is absolutely no way that a grinder does the job of a sandblasting.
You want to clean the entire surface, not just the sections that have cancer already.
It is at best a band aid that you might use if you were in a 3rd world area and had no other option.

There is absolutely no way that failing to etch the bare aluminum is acceptable prep.
Self-etching primer might help, but is a poor substitute.
It is at best a band aid that you might use if you were in a 3rd world area and had no other option.

There is absolutely no way that zinc primer is the equivalent of epoxy.
For one thing, it is water-permeable, and the LU will corrode under it.
It is at best a band aid that you might use if you were in a 3rd world area and had no other option.

There is absolutely no way that West Marine CFA Eco is the equivalent of Coppercoat.
It will not hold up well, and it will not keep mussels from attaching for very long. It's poorly rated.
It is at best a band aid that you might use if you were in a 3rd world area and had no other option.

There is absolutely no way that the wrong spark plugs were a good idea.
It is at best a band aid that you might use if you were in a 3rd world area and had no other option.

Since you are not adequately educated/qualified, you need to get a qualified marine or auto electric technician on site to troubleshoot the choke -- or at least ask intelligent questions and follow professional advice instead of obtusely insisting that you have a clue. If you were even remotely qualified, you would not have those basic Ohm's law questions. Right now, you don't know whether you are delivering the proper signal to the choke solenoid when you want to, and you aren't sure whether the solenoid coil is good or bad, nor do you know that the ground wire from the coil is attached to frame ground. You don't use proper troubleshooting techniques, and you don't understand the test results when you see them.

We can't pound training into your head, but please don't ignore and challenge the professionals in areas where you don't have a clue.
 

Plandeck

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
115
you may be right about the washer...yes I can pull it apart again this weekend, the carrier and the prop shaft and place the washer...still I'm sure it popped out when I removed the double lipped seal...must have stuck to the bevel gear and then dropped off it...I did grind the entire LU after disassembly including the carrier down to bare aluminum...the self etching zinc primer I used on the steel keel has never lifted or shown signs of water penetration after 5 years of use...maybe in salt water but not fresh...I'll check the solenoid ground wire...but it worked fine for a year before falling silent...the local West Marine guy claims the zinc based anti-fouling outdrive spray paint will prevent the zebra mussel from bedding themselves at the water intake...at least for a season...then reapply...3rd world or DIY...the last time I had Firestone rotate my tires they forgot to tighten the lug nuts almost killing me on my way home! I spent 3 seasons ascending the mast to dismount and return the anemometer back to the Mfr for repair before finally insisting they send me a brand new one! I was fired 16 times by people with 1/10 my competence before establishing my own business. How about a professional attorney! a stock broker! an Architect! No thank you...I represent myself in court, I design my own accommodations...but enough of this...thank you again for your advice.
 
Last edited:

km1125

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
496
Plandeck: You should look at the parts diagram and the washer that Paul is pointing out. Looks exactly like what you had posted is the issue. And would be a good idea to find out now rather than after the motor has been running. It would likely work - for a while - until the failure occurs, but then cost $$$ to fix.

Everyone says the prep on aluminum is where the issues are. Etching the aluminum gets into the crevices and below the surface, where just sanding or grinding just knocks off the paint and corrosion at the top. You probably still have some corrosion under the surface of that primer. You probably could have just used latex house paint and got similar results (j/k..kind of).

Paul: Please don't get too frustrated and leave the forum... just leave this thread if necessary. Good to point out **for others** where you think the OP went off course, so they learn the "what's and why's" of how to do things... I find that information very helpful in understanding the whole picture rather than just the steps to resolve an issue.
 

Plandeck

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
115
...if your not satisfied with the DIY survival guide answer above, why what I am doing is not 3rd world, that the society run by certified professionals is lost somewhere in England, although it should have been forgotten after the travesty of the Byzantine empire, maybe now is a good time to bring up Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance...a bible in the 1970's...now somewhat forgotten to the past...although it is the sailboat today where it may have been the motorcycle then...the motor, how it is maintained continues to play an important philosophical roll...
 

pvanv

Admiral
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
6,509
The title of the thread is [h=1]Engin Basement Gasket leaking[/h]
I doubt that it is,
 

Sea Rider

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
12,345
Paul: Please don't get too frustrated and leave the forum... just leave this thread if necessary.

I'll fully second that, sometimes posts can turn into long endless ones, ramble or go way off topic...

Happy Boating
 

Plandeck

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
115
No Title

...well it worked...replacing the slightly bent prop shaft on my Nissan 8hp (now 9hp with new carb installed as a sail drive to the orange sailboat shown below) last winter stopped the water leaking into the gear oil...hauled out and drained the lower unit gear case yesterday and out came pure black sludge..think I"ll put the 3 wing prop back on next season to see If I can get those revs up above 4,000...I would of posted this under new topics but can't seem to figure out how to do it...
 

Attachments

  • photo280840.jpg
    photo280840.jpg
    216.6 KB · Views: 0

Sea Rider

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
12,345
If 4K is at wot rpm range, it is way low, engine is being extremely lugged which is bad. Need to prop it right for sailboat to run at least middle wot rpm range, although max wot rpm is preferred. Seems will need to drop severeral pitches down from current pitch to achieve that cond.

Happy Boating
 

pvanv

Admiral
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
6,509
The gear oil shouldn't be black, unless it was very old, or was black when it went in. But good that no water is in there.

If you are running a 7-pitch HT prop, you need to switch to the 5-pitch HT prop, not go backwards to the "speedboat" prop that came on the 8 hp motor when new. Remember that those motors were intended for small tenders and the like... yes, you can get more prop slip by going with a non-ht prop, but it does not shovel the water as efficiently.

Did you ever track down the motor oil leak?

Click on the orange "+ New Topic" button in the main part of the forum to start a new thread.
 
Last edited:

Plandeck

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
115
...my very smart sailor buddy asks, "why don't they make a 2 blade prop for outboards similar with what one finds on the typical inboard sailboat engine setup?"...I appreciate the added control around the harbor and in reverse with the 4 blade prop...but rather have the power back I had with the triple prop and the high revs when the seas get rough and the winds are strong...get me home safe!...would a 2 blade prop on my outboard-saildrive setup give me even more revs and high end power?

Yes the oil leak has stopped since I followed your advice to run the oil only half full...

Still can't find an orange button to start a new topic...can't even find "the main part of the forum"...
 
Top