1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

[todd.bellamy]

Re: 1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

Guys,
tracking down something I saw the other day. May be related. There are small hoses I hadn't looked at until today near the fuel pump and wrapping around other parts of the engine. The are starting to crack (or have been for a bit), could this be related to my issue? See attached picture. Also, for my fuel primer, when the engine if off i push the black button on the top down but it doesn't stay down, pops right back up, is that normal? Thanks again guys, trying to get her running!

 

[MickLovin]

Re: 1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

Should be normal for the primer to be spring loaded I would think, and I couldn't really see the holes you are talking about

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

Those small rubber lines that are about 1/4" in diameter are for the fuel recirculation system. Shouldn't have much of an affect on starting. Look closely at them. If they are in fact cracked, then you should replace them. Sometimes they have a clear coating on them that cracks with age and the hose itself is fine.

Like Mick stated, the black button on the primer solenoid is spring loaded. To test to see if it is hooked up and working, turn the ignition key top the ON position, (not START). Push in on the key and you will hear a faint clicking sound from the solenoid. If you do, then it is hooked up and engaging. If not, you need to trouble-shoot the wiring or the solenoid itself.

 

[MickLovin]

Re: 1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

Noticed a white cable in your picture not connected, do you know what it is for?

 

[todd.bellamy]

Re: 1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

Hey PNWBOAT, thanks for the info. Yes it looks like it is just the clear shield on the small fuel recirculating lines that is starting to crack (shew!). I will test the solenoid in a few days, toooo cold outside to run the motor right now.

Hey MickLovin, that cable hasn't been hooked up for a while, I think its actually a tan/brown. I also noticed its not connected at the wire harness either. I'll take a look at my wire diagram and see if I can figure it out.

Thanks Guys!
Todd

 

[todd.bellamy]

Re: 1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

Hey PNWBOAT, thanks for the info. Yes it looks like it is just the clear shield on the small fuel recirculating lines that is starting to crack (shew!). I will test the solenoid in a few days, toooo cold outside to run the motor right now.

Hey MickLovin, that cable hasn't been hooked up for a while, I think its actually a tan/brown. I also noticed its not connected at the wire harness either. My diagram says that it is for the temperature sensor, but trust me that IS hooked up (my hose flew off the muffs when i was running it in my drive way once and i heard it go off).
Thanks Guys!
Todd

 

[todd.bellamy]

Re: 1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

Got an update for you guys. I tried pumping some gas through the primer bulb with the fuel lines re connected and it never got quite hard, kinda hard but not like any other boat i've ever owned. So i ordered an used fuel pump (thank ebay) and will try that sucker out this weekend. I also bought a shop manual.

I took some time and looked at the startor as well. All looked good (its a red one) no sticky melted coils.

So my question is...... COULD LOW PRESSURE AT THE PRIMER PUMP (AIR IN THE SYSTEM/ LOW FUEL PRESSURE) CAUSE A HARD START AFTER RUNNING?

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

Usually, if the primer bulb doesn't get good and firm, it's because of a leak. A common cause is the needle valve in the carburetor is not sealing and not shutting off the flow of fuel. If you keep squeezing enough times, fuel will start to flow out of the vent hole on the side of the carburetor just above the fuel bowl. See the vent hole illustrated below highlighted by the black circle. Not sure if your carburetor is exactly like this one but you will have a vent hole similar to this.




Note: Make sure the motor is tilted down in the normal running position.

If the motor is tilted up, you may see some leakage from the vent hole. This is normal.

If the needle valve is not shutting off the flow of fuel to keep the fuel level at the proper level in the carburetor bowl, it will result in flooding which would make it difficult to start.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: 1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

After reading the entirety of this thread, I have yet to read if there is a clear fuel filter installed between the fuel pump and the carb intake. This is a very useful troubleshooting tool not to mention it is very cheap to do. All it requires is a less than $5 fuel filter from Walmart and two hose clamps. The primer bulb issue can be easily diagnosed with the aid of this fuel filter. Anytime you cannot get a firm primer bulb and the clear filter doesn't actually get filled, it tells you either you have a blockage or leak or maybe even a faulty primer bulb (stuck check valves) downstream of the bulb and related fuel lines. So far we have yet to hear about the presence of "sparks" when the engine would not fire. Any test results on this troubleshooting?

 

[MickLovin]

Re: 1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

It would definately make it hard to start especially if your fuel diaphragm has a hole in it as it would pump fuel straight into the crankcase causing a flooded scenario. Get a Filter, check all your fuel lines for perishing. I actually use a clear reinforced fuel line from my pump to my carbies and in between them. I found bubbles coming from the pump and found my diaphragm was shot. I replaced it still found bubbles and found a loose connection on my water seperator. After finding and resolving these issues my motor starts first few cranks now and starts first go when warm.

 

[todd.bellamy]

Re: 1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

So guys had a rough go of it the past few weeks, had to replace my front window on the boat and bilge pump and ... more

BUT! Back to the story! So I found a small crack in the primer bulb! Replaced it and ran over the weekend without issue. The new/old fuel pump hasn't been added yet because the deck top tanks I was using were running just fine. (Unfortunately no Stripers on the bay when I went out) So that issue is now FIXED to some extent.

I have an 85 GAL on board tank that I'm trying to switch over to using instead of deck top tanks.

So i hook up my 120hp force to the line with the primer bulb (new), then 10micron sierra fuel/water seperator (new). Then down to the tank. ALL NEW LINES. Now when I pumped that sucker up and got the ball hard with fuel I can start the motor then a sputter and it dies.....

Checked the primer bulb and all connections. The primer bulb stays hard but doesn't have any fuel in it. So I prime again, get it to sputter, then dies. and repeat.

Is my mechanical fuel pump not strong enough to suck through 4+ feet of hose and the 10micron filter/seperator?

Thanks for all the help guys!

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

It should be able to pull gas through that without any problem. I would take a look at the fuel pickup in the tank. Make sure the tank is properly vented.

 

[todd.bellamy]

Re: 1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

So when i went to the add some fuel to the tank i could feel air coming out of the vent. Would that mean that it is properly vented?
The vent line comes out by the fill line.

The tank seems to be in good shape. I checked my connections again and they seem tight. The pickup is welded in place, the boat is a 1983 Regal Regency 210. so i can't really get into check further. How tight should my fuel/water separator be? should i use fuel rated doping tape around connectors? my primer bulb also lays horizontally just in front of the motor, could that check valve not be keeping pressure?

 

[Jiggz]

Re: 1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

Are you sure it was air escaping out of the vent or could it be air being sucked in to the vent. Anyways, try again with the tank cap cracked open just to make sure it is properly vented. If problem persists, try by-passing the water separator for now which means you should only have a primer bulb and fuel hoses between the tank and the fuel pump. If problem is resolved, you might want investigate the water separator or reconsider a different one that only has a separator.

 

[todd.bellamy]

Re: 1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

Putting the doping tape on the fuel water separator today, will also try opening the fuel fill cap too today. Stay tuned...

 

[todd.bellamy]

Re: 1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

Soo added the sopping tap and got some good pressure. Also found out: 1. The fuel fill hose in the tank goes stair to the bottom. 2. I had some crap fuel/water in there, pumped a gallon and a half of it out. Also emptied the brand new fuel water separator and it ha small organisms swimming in it! But no rust.

What the hell was I thinking when I started this project?!?!?!

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 1996 Force 120 HP Hard to start after running.

Well sounds like you're making some headway!

What the hell was I thinking when I started this project?!?!?!

I think we've all been there, done that and got the T-shirt.

 

[todd.bellamy]

Gentlemen, I have found the final cause and solution. Wasn't fuel....

I was the ground leads on the battery.....

There were six negative leads on the ground terminal of the main battery. I added a negative grounding block with small eyes like the linked one, then ran all the small negatives to it then one large gauge negative cable to the battery negative, so after the change there were only 2 negative cables touching the battery terminal.

For the live of mean I wasn't able to find out why my boat was running so well this spring! I thought... must have been some good stabilizer I added Then realized I added the negative block over the winter.

Welp, all is well that ends well. The boat now runs, starts, and idles like a champ. I think the poor negative connection was causing poor spark, and its easier to start a dry motor with a small spark than a wet one with a small spark.

Thanks for all your help (yes this did take me over a year to fix) and I hope someone can use this post in the future.

-Todd

BTW I'll add a picture as well ... sometime

 

[pnwboat]

Glad everything is working well now. Thanks for letting everyone know the final outcome. Happy boating!