1999 Force 120 HP cuts out at 4400 RPM

jhebert10

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My 1999 Force otherwise runs perfect, I have had it since brand new. Recently I installed a CD and radio in my boat and learned that RFI from the engine was causing it not to work. So I switched from NGK BUHW plugs to NGK BUZHW plugs and RFI problem is gone. But, ever since this change, my engine cuts out when I push it above 4300 to 4400 RPM. It also seems to overheat. I have only had it on the water twice since this change, both times same thing. Has anyone heard of resistive spark plugs causing such a thing? I have not done any other tests, I guess it could be a coincidence with another problem. But otherwise, engine is perfect, starts real easy after a long (months) sit up. accelerates good. Just cuts out at that higher RPM. First time it did it, it had been running about 20 minutes below 4000. Then within 5 minutes at max RPM, cut out, over heat alarm. It was also hard to start, I let it sit for 20 minutes to cool down, then started ok, idled back to dock. I thought it could be bad gas. Second time out, after 10 minutes, pushed it up, cut out, but only a slight beep on the over heat sensor. Waited a minute, started ok, ran back to dock at 3000 RPM. Any experience or help would be most appreciated. The engine has been absolutely wonderful for 14 years.

John
 

Big Fish Billy

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Re: 1999 Force 120 HP cuts out at 4400 RPM

Seems coincidental with another problem, but could be a slight change in timing or heat range with the new plugs. Well I guess first thing, put the original plugs back in and see what happens, then at least you'll eliminate that as a problem. If the problem goes away perhaps you can add a battery and a battery switch and run the electronics off that. If not, well then sounds like an overheating problem to work on, check impellor and or perhaps a head gasket leaking at high rpm....just a few things to think about while having Christmas porridge.....
 
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jerryjerry05

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Re: 1999 Force 120 HP cuts out at 4400 RPM

First do a compression test.
Then change the impeller.
Like Billy says change the plugs back.
Where did you hook the power for the new radio?
 

jhebert10

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Re: 1999 Force 120 HP cuts out at 4400 RPM

First do a compression test.
Then change the impeller.
Like Billy says change the plugs back.
Where did you hook the power for the new radio?


Power is straight off a second battery, that is generally for my trolling motor. It can be switched to run the engine starter as a backup. The RFI occurs whether is battery is connected to the motor or not. Most definitely RFI issue.
 

jhebert10

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Re: 1999 Force 120 HP cuts out at 4400 RPM

Seems coincidental with another problem, but could be a slight change in timing or heat range with the new plugs. Well I guess first thing, put the original plugs back in and see what happens, then at least you'll eliminate that as a problem. If the problem goes away perhaps you can add a battery and a battery switch and run the electronics off that. If not, well then sounds like an overheating problem to work on, check impellor and or perhaps a head gasket leaking at high rpm....just a few things to think about while having Christmas porridge.....

Definitely will go back to old plugs. Unfortunately, I trashed the old ones because everything seemed just fine while running on shore hose line. But I purchased some new ones today. Will know tomorrow what happens.
 

jhebert10

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Re: 1999 Force 120 HP cuts out at 4400 RPM

Ok, definitely was not the plugs. I put old style plugs back in. Ran on idle for about 10 minutes, then fully rev'd engine on water up to 5000 RPM. Engine worked great for about 15 minutes. I thought for sure that the plugs were the problem until I shut the engine off for about 30 minutes to fish. Then started the engine again. Ran at full throttle for about 10 minutes, then engine cut out. Engine was a little rough starting, but did start easily, but had a vibration like it was running on 3 cylinders. It ran fine, I used it for about 20 minutes, on and off, but never more than 3500 RPM. Always started real easy. Next I am going to check compression, will report back.
 

jhebert10

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Re: 1999 Force 120 HP cuts out at 4400 RPM

ok, did the compression test and I think I found the culprit - reading were 1 - 82, 2 - 40, 3 - 99, 4 - 95. I see a little bit of corrossion creeping about the bolts near # 2 cylinder. Good news, I don't think I see any metal particles on the plugs. IMG_20140112_094037.jpgIMG_20140112_094031.jpgIMG_20140112_094057.jpgIMG_20140112_094102.jpg Next step I will pull the head off. If anyone has a set of instructions for removal and installation, I would appreciate a copy. thanks
 

Frank Acampora

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Re: 1999 Force 120 HP cuts out at 4400 RPM

Compression is too low on all four cylinders. It should be up around 145 PSI. You can first try a decarb and that may help a little but I suspect that #2 may have a broken ring. It is also possible that the head gasket is bad so check that carefully. Once you pull the head, check for scoring especially around #2.

Removing the head takes no special sequence; just remove all the head bolts. However reinstalling the head requires a special spiral bolt tightening sequence and a torque wrench. Most Force engines require 225inch pounds torque on the head bolts BUT SOME require a different value plus 1/4 turn more. So, you need to investigate that.
 
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Big Fish Billy

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Re: 1999 Force 120 HP cuts out at 4400 RPM

Silly question, but what does scoring actually indicate...
 

jhebert10

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Re: 1999 Force 120 HP cuts out at 4400 RPM

Got the head off. Could see nothing wrong on the head gasket. But it is clear what is wrong with number 2 cylinder. See photos below. Apparently overheating occurred, some of the piston disintegrated and that material scored the cylinder wall near top of cylinder. The scoring is very slight. If you run your fingernail, it is just barely enough to catch your nail. Otherwise, it just feels rough. The other cylinder walls are glassy smooth. Question, is it normal to be able to rattle pistons with your hands just a little? All 4 can be rattled to the same amount. From the photos, I assume the number 2 piston needs to be replaced? would you agree? Then hone #2 cylinder, replace rings on all 4 pistons and new head gasket? Does this sound right? Question is, what caused this to happen in the first place? Tattle tail still shows the water pump to be strong. Nothing looks clogged around the #2 cylinder. I also don't see any scorching anywhere around the engine. It did get hot (I know from the alarm). Similar to intake getting clogged with Louisiana marsh mud. Let it cool, then everything is fine. Any help with this is most welcomed.IMG_20140112_121547.jpgIMG_20140112_121539.jpgIMG_20140112_122245.jpgIMG_20140112_122258.jpgIMG_20140112_122949.jpg
 

jhebert10

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Re: 1999 Force 120 HP cuts out at 4400 RPM

I am by no means an expert like the rest of these guys, but obviously, it means something rubbed on the wall that was not supposed to. Could be a busted piston ring. In my case, it is at least some debris from the end of the piston that seemed to disintegrate. See the photos in the other posts here and you will see what I mean. The other three pistons still look like brand new except for a little bit of carbon buildup. Those cylinder walls are perfectly smooth.
 

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Frank Acampora

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Re: 1999 Force 120 HP cuts out at 4400 RPM

You have two distinct problems: The melting on the baffle of #2 piston is due to lean running. Judging from your compression results, the low reading is probably due to a broken top ring. The broken ring limited your engine's ability to deliver power and saved it from more severe damage from detonation. Consider yourself lucky.

These engines with semi-keystone top rings are prone to breaking the top one. It is a relatively common occurrence. The broken top ring then scores the cylinder and piston and sometimes the cylinder head as the broken piece rattles around before being blown out the exhaust. The exhaust ports may have a nick in them where the ring was caught or may not. At any rate, a small nick there will not hurt anything.

It is difficult to see the extent of the scoring . However, if the scoring is light enough that you do not catch a fingernail when dragged across it, then simply honing should do. It is a judgement call but do not let economics dictate the repairs. If a friend has a bore micrometer, Mike the bore--It should be 3.375 +.002 max. If the scoring exceeds that or if cylinder out of round exceeds that then it needs to be bored either .010, .020, or .030 depending upon severity. If you don't have a friend, take it to a machine shop. Let them tell you if it needs boring.

From the photos, again, I can not tell you if the #2 piston needs replacing but if it did flip a ring the ring groove will be damaged and then yes, it will need replacing. The damage to the baffle is not so great by itself as to require replacing the piston. However, Aesthetically, it bothers me and if it were my engine yes, I would replace it.

Pistons are cam ground to an oval shape and tapered up top to account for uneven expansion due to uneven cylinder cooling. YES, they do rattle in the bore when cold and all four should do it about the same amount--although it is a difficult call by hand unless damage to one is severe.

Because of the nature of the intake, twin carbs, and manifold design, one cylinder will always run leaner than the other in a pair. This is no problem when the carbs are set correctly. However, If one carb goes lean for whatever reason, ONE cylinder will be too lean and will enter detonation, destroying the piston and scoring the cylinder severely--sometimes beyond boring limits.

SO: When you go to reassemble the engine, remove and disassemble the carbs. Clean them well. When you put them back, be certain there is a filter between the fuel pump and carbs (I believe late model Force engines did have a fuel filter here). When you start the engine set the low speed needles to 1 1/4 turns out to start. Never adjust to less than 7/8 turns out no matter how poor the idle. Usually, these engines are happiest at somewhere between 1 and 1 1/4 turns out from lightly seated.

Rings very rarely wear enough to be replaced so on the other three cylinders: Remove the pistons and clean rings and ring grooves. LIGHTLY hone the cylinder walls. Coat the entire piston skirt and rings with TWC-3 oil or assembly lube and reinsert the pistons.
 
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jhebert10

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Re: 1999 Force 120 HP cuts out at 4400 RPM

Thanks for the reply Frank, very much appreciated. Will do all as you say. Seems like a fun project as the engine is fairly simple and I have never redone an engine before, first time for everything. I really like this engine, 14 years of great service. I think I may have been the one to cause the problem. I did attempt to fix a poor idle by resetting the idle. It was constantly stopping on me. I did set the idle to run a little faster, I guess I probably set it too lean. I never imagined that it could cause this, I probably did set it less than 7/8. I will check that out and see if it is so. I bet it is.
 

jhebert10

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Re: 1999 Force 120 HP cuts out at 4400 RPM

Thanks for the reply Frank, very much appreciated. Will do all as you say. Seems like a fun project as the engine is fairly simple and I have never redone an engine before, first time for everything. I really like this engine, 14 years of great service. I think I may have been the one to cause the problem. I did attempt to fix a poor idle by resetting the idle. It was constantly stopping on me. I did set the idle to run a little faster, I guess I probably set it too lean. I never imagined that it could cause this, I probably did set it less than 7/8. I will check that out and see if it is so. I bet it is.

Another question, should the head gasket always be replaced? I don't see anything wrong with it. Not sure if it should always be replaced or not when the head is pulled.
 

Frank Acampora

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Re: 1999 Force 120 HP cuts out at 4400 RPM

I personally re-use head gaskets all the time if they are not damaged. Again, that is a judgement call on your part. However, if you are going to need to bore the #2 cylinder and buy an oversized piston and rings, what is another 30 bucks for a new head gasket?

When I do a rebuild for another person, I always use a new head gasket. It is a question of workmanship and not cutting corners. Follow recommended procedure and the job will always turn out well.
 
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