1995 Force 120 Power trim question!

[Axi005]

Hello I am a first time boat owner so please don't mind the questions. I am mechanically able and Ive spent several hours on this forum tuning my boat. I have a 1995 quantum with a force 120 outbord motor. The problem im having is my power tilt trim will go down, but it will not raise. It has a new battery, trim motor makes a "whirring noise" when activated but will not raise, relay connections cleaned, relays tested and flipped, relays work good, power source good, Im currently replacing the oil in the Single ram power trim. "2nd question" If anybody knows how much oil I need, and what type 30wt, Iso32, ATF or tractor oil and how much. Also what could my problem be with it not raising. Is it leaking pressure somewhere, what are common known problems. Thanks in advance

 

[RRitt]

Re: 1995 Force 120 Power trim question!

use iso32 or tractor oil. I have been paying close attention to mercury systems this summer. I'm seeing two factory installed fluids. One is the dextron atf - very thin and very red. The other is a dyed H.O. It appears to be a high grade iso32 due to its clarity. It could also be multitrac tractor fluid. If you examine it you can see that it is a light honey colored base tinted with red dye.

as regards your trim system.
manually assist the engine, lift fully, and block into place. - top off fluid when raised.
cycle and repeat 2-3 times to make sure there are no air bubbles or leaks.

If the problem persists then you have a pump problem.
my first guess would be debris.
my second guess would be fatigued or rusted trim bypass spring
my third guess would be a broken MRV
my fourth guess would be mechanical problem with rocker arm or rocker piston.

let's hope for low fluid. all the others can turn into pandora's box.

 

[Axi005]

Re: 1995 Force 120 Power trim question!

use iso32 or tractor oil. I have been paying close attention to mercury systems this summer. I'm seeing two factory installed fluids. One is the dextron atf - very thin and very red. The other is a dyed H.O. It appears to be a high grade iso32 due to its clarity. It could also be multitrac tractor fluid. If you examine it you can see that it is a light honey colored base tinted with red dye.

as regards your trim system.
manually assist the engine, lift fully, and block into place. - top off fluid when raised.
cycle and repeat 2-3 times to make sure there are no air bubbles or leaks.

If the problem persists then you have a pump problem.
my first guess would be debris.
my second guess would be fatigued or rusted trim bypass spring
my third guess would be a broken MRV
my fourth guess would be mechanical problem with rocker arm or rocker piston.

let's hope for low fluid. all the others can turn into pandora's box.

Thanks for the quick response RRitt. I have noticed your elvated participation in this forum and noticed your participation and knowledge in regards to the power trim questions or concerns. I will change the fluid and get back to you. Quick question, when refilling with new fluid do i have to close fill screw before lowering it. Should i lift/lower manually or should I use the power trim to have the motor pump the fluids. Thanks for your response in advance.



Ive ran into a wall, I purchased the oil, im in the process of changing it, I can only fit about 8oz in there. Then I unscrew the vent screw and lift up the motor to up position. screw in vent, unscrew filler hole and its full. But now when I tried to do it with the switch it wont go up or down. I dont think enough fluid has entered the system. Does anybody know how much oil goes into the power trim. Thanks in advance.

 

[RRitt]

Re: 1995 Force 120 Power trim question!

system uses about 1 cup in cylinder and 1 cup in reservoir for a total of 1 pint (500ml) in system.

fill plug should only be removed when system is raised.
never run trim motor with manual release loosened
raise and lower with motor for bleeding.
raising and lowering by hand may not eliminate air bubbles.

 

[Axi005]

Re: 1995 Force 120 Power trim question!

Thank you, My process consisted of-

1 Unscrewing manual release
2 Raising motor manually to full up position
3 Screw in manual release
5 Add oil 8oz=.5 pint and screw in fill plug
6. Use electric motor to lower it

Im running into some problems-
1 The reserviour took only 8oz which is 0.5pints
2 The electric pump wont lower the motor completely, it stops 3" short of complete cycle.
3 The electric pumpt wont raise the motor at all.

Since so little oil entered the system I tried not to use the electric motor "short spurts to test" until I figure out the oil issue.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: 1995 Force 120 Power trim question!

I just got done doing my T&T. What I do when I am ready to bleed the system is to loosen tubing connections to the tilt and trim return lines or "down lines". On the cylinders these are the top fittings. DO NOT DISCONNECT. Loosen enough so the tubing have a very little wiggle. Place a pan to catch oil leakage. Now remove the fill cap and have someone operate the T&T switch while you are watching the system. Start with the up direction first until you see the rams move up. Air/oil will leak through the loose fittings which is what you want to accomplish. Do this intermittently (2~3 secs at a time) while monitoring the level of the oil in the pump assy and fill as required. Note the leaking oil. When it start to become less white or bubbly. Time to go to down direction. Again watch the leaking oil. At this time the rams may move a little or a lot depending how much air is in the system. Continue doing so until the leaking oil is clear oil or very little bubbles and the rams are extending all the way out and moves smoothly. Then re-tighten the fittings and you should be good to go.

 

[RRitt]

Re: 1995 Force 120 Power trim question!

a) he doesn't have any tubing. the 120HP single ram system motor and pump bolt right onto the side of lift cylinder. It ends up looking like a one piece unit.

b) a functional system is self bleeding. as you run it up and down the air bubbles get pushed back into reservoir. When they reach reservoir then they float to top. after 2-3 cycles there should not be any air left in cylinder, gears, or valves. All trim systems need some air in reservoir or they will burst when you lower them.

 

[RRitt]

Re: 1995 Force 120 Power trim question!

Thank you, My process consisted of-

1 Unscrewing manual release
2 Raising motor manually to full up position
3 Screw in manual release
5 Add oil 8oz=.5 pint and screw in fill plug
6. Use electric motor to lower it

Im running into some problems-
1 The reserviour took only 8oz which is 0.5pints
2 The electric pump wont lower the motor completely, it stops 3" short of complete cycle.
3 The electric pumpt wont raise the motor at all.

Since so little oil entered the system I tried not to use the electric motor "short spurts to test" until I figure out the oil issue.

It sounds like your pump is probably broken. It happens a lot due to filler plug shedding debris or motor allowing water into oil. there is no easy fix. But - just in case - try manually raising and lowering a couple times. try loosening the manual release 2-1/2 turns and raising-lowering by hand. you may want to throw a rope over a thick branch to help. maybe you'll get lucky and blow out the debris or loosen the valve or or or something

if that doesn't work, then go to ebay or dealer and look for replacements or rebuilds. the single ram rocker arm pump has a very low DIY success rate. I'd guess less than 50%.

 

[Axi005]

Re: 1995 Force 120 Power trim question!

Sorry for the delay as some of you know I was working on the motor the past few days so the Tilt/trim was on the back burner.
So I manually raised lowered the motor, and tried adding more oil, there are only about 8oz of oil in the resorviour and I was only able to add 1oz more. It seems like something isn't allowing the oil to enter the master cylinder. @RRitt from my research I see that you worked alot with the tilt/trim. Im a DIY type of guy and id like to atleast tear this system apart and give it a shot prior to purchasing another one for (+/- 400). The Electric pump works, I hear it spinning, It almost seems like a Hydrolic jack when there is not enough oil in there. So its allowing the motor to lower but not raise. Are there any DIY guides to taking apart they system, maybe I can clean it internally to see if something is jammed or there is loose dirt.. Thanks in advance guys.

 

[RRitt]

Re: 1995 Force 120 Power trim question!

if the reservoir is full when raised then close mrv, put on cap, and lower with switch.
If it will not lower with a full reservoir, a closed mrv, and a spinning motor then the pump is broken.

you should have same pump as the merc90 guy in mercury forums. there are pictures in that post that are as much help as can be conveyed without writing a long paper.

I don't count the pump or motor as part of a core beyond the salvage value (i.e. cannibalizing small parts). Too many of the 1989-2003 mercury pumps have debris from filler plug. Once that happens, the best idea is to strip the small parts and throw the manifold away. It can turn into a black hole of time. Since the new systems are sold on exchange there is always an excess of pumps and manifolds. Never enough cylinders though. Tons of those split from having water in the oil over a Michigan winter. Your cylinder has to be in good shape or its a "bad core". Motors? even if a motor looks new you still don't really know how many hours are left. All you have is a guess and doing the work to make an informed guess costs as much as a used motor can sell for. So motors are $0 core value. It's all about that cylinder. A freshwater cylinder will last forever if you don't let water get inside and freeze. I guess a brand new one has to be better than rebuilt, but I'll be darned if I could say why.

 

[Axi005]

Re: 1995 Force 120 Power trim question!

Thanks once agian.

First portion-
With the caps screwed in the motor will lower with the motor/ switch. Thats what confuses me
(so the motor appears to be good) @RRitt you mentioned 16oz should fit into the system, I am only able to put 8oz in.
I recently moved to Fl from Pa so I have experienced winters for a majority of my life. This was mostly a fresh water boat, and when i drained the oil there was no water or milky appearance. So The cylinder appears good. I guess ill just tear it apart when I have a chance just out of curiosity.

Thanks for the heads up ill check out the mercury90 guy, like I mentioned I am new with boats and this forum so I don't exactly know what parts are interchangeable and im not to familiar with the forum but im looking forward to this learning experience....

Would you suggest keeping the hydraulic cylinder and just replacing the motor? What would be your personal recommendation or steps that you would follow? Thanks

 

[RRitt]

Re: 1995 Force 120 Power trim question!

there is always 8oz in cylinder regardless of trim position. when up, it is 8oz beneath the piston. When down it is 8oz above the piston. Unless you take system apart it is still there.

If you overfill a system, the reservoir will crack.