88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

[Overbudgetwhocares]

Ok this is my first post and I'm also new to being on the water. I am an ase master auto tech so I'm not completely lost but am confused at this point. I have a 1988 fore 85hp on the back of my 1988 VIP 18' center console. Supposedly I was buying a "no headaches go boating" everything is fine boat. Ran on the muffs sounded a bit broken up but had been sitting 3 years so I took it home. Threw it in the water and it went down hill from there. Idol has never been an issue but it will not run under load other then once it got up on plane for about a minute then took a vacation. I read Asante posts as I could in the last 2 months and followed them to the letter but have had no real luck. So lets start with what I have done. Every fuel line on the vessel has been replaced, all 3 carbs were carefully taken apart cleaned and reassembled with the proper float adjustment and the idol mixture base lined -1 out. I rebuilt the fuel pump with a new diaphram and check valves. 3 new plug. Compression heck showed 150/145/150 no issue there. Replaced all 3 coils/secondary wires and that cleared up the bit of a miss. Original wires were just deteriorated and arcing out. Removed the flywheel on a whim because I read of a sheer jetway and sure as s*** mine was shered. Replaced re assembled re timed the whole nine yards. Me and a buddy threw it in the water and it got up went like hell and died all together. Ended up rowing it in. Any and all help would be great thank you

 

[foodfisher]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

Died, like someone turned off the key=electrical. Died, like cough and sputter=fuel.

 

[Overbudgetwhocares]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

Like it loaded up.

 

[Overbudgetwhocares]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

Not saying it loaded up but acted like that. I guess coming from an automotive background I would say it started running like it had a stuffed catalytic converter and died rite out. Will run fin on muffs and go all the way to the red line. Will in for hours on the muffs at any rpm but dies under throttle while under a load.

 

[Overbudgetwhocares]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

And no I'm not as dumb as my original post sounds, just re read it and auto correct screwed me again. I also want to add that we even used an auxiliary tank with a new primer instead of the on board tank because I have yet to clean it so I believe it to be something in the engine itself and not a delivery to the engine problem if it is fuel related. Thanks again

 

[foodfisher]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

Double check compression numbers. Then fuel connections. Somethings not letting enough fuel through. Fouled/gunked up connections, air leaks. If you have an inline filter between the fuel pump and the carbs. a clue could reside there. OBTW it's an 85hp not 86. Edit: if all that checks out, then your into fuel pump valves and reeds which are beyond my experience.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

Make sure you're getting a good strong spark on all three cylinders. With it idling on muffs, momentarily pull a plug wire off. The idle speed should change. If you have a cylinder where the it has no affect, then you might want to start trouble-shooting the ignition system.

 

[Overbudgetwhocares]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

Plenty of fuel all the way to the pump on the side of the case. And spark is perfect. Complete ignition system just gone through and compression is mint. Trust me I have banged my head against the wall for a while with this and as qualified as I am and as simple as the product is it is heart breaking to see it sit there and be as lost with it as I am. Anyone have any info on weather or not I can get rid of that mechanical pump and run a 12volt electric pump w/ a regulator directly to the carbs? I do completely understand the hazards of an electric pump but was bouncing the idea around to try it just To see if I get a good result

 

[foodfisher]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

Electric pump=bomb. No Go! Good call on the spark. Is it strong enough?

 

[Overbudgetwhocares]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

Spark is strong, compression is great and fuel is sufficient to the rebuilt pump everything about the engine says it should run great

 

[foodfisher]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

Is the fuel getting through the pump? That's where the button/valves come into play.

 

[Overbudgetwhocares]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

I would say yes because I have ran it for hours on the muffs at every speed in and out of gear and it never skips a beat but as soon as you put it in the water idol away from the ramp turn the boat around put the throttle forward and it winds up and dies as quick as it wound up

 

[Overbudgetwhocares]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

I did not replace the valves when I rebuilt the pump I did check the valves though and considered them in good working order because at rest they were closed and with minimal pressure they opened rite up

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

First, as an auto tech, you should know that running on muffs shows almost nothing---even an auto engine that is in poor condition will run to the red line with no load. It just doesn't take that much horsepower and fuel to get to high RPM with no load!

My guess is still that you are running out of fuel. Did you put the fuel pump check valves in the correct orientation? Did you check the reeds for broken or bent petals? Starting the engine, the carbs are full. Then, as the engine runs, for whatever reason the carbs run out of fuel and the engine stalls.

Now, lean running is murder on these engines so you need to re-check compression. If you get low numbers, you will almost certainly have damaged one or more pistons.

Remove the plugs and turn the flywheel quickly by hand. You should feel some resistance and hear a "Thup" as each piston moves down in the cylinder. This is crankcase compression. Poor crankcase compression will have two major results: 1. Not enough vacuum and pressure to adequately work the fuel pump diaphragm and 2. Not enough fresh charge will be pumped to the upper cylinder.

A primer if you have not worked on 2 cycle engines: They are different than 4 cycle because they use the bottom of the piston to pump fuel/air into and out of the crankcase. Reeds are simple one way valves to allow air/fuel to enter the crankcase and then be pressurized by the downward movement of the piston.

With older Chrysler engines, an electric pump would be acceptable because it can be installed to stop pumping when the engine stops for any reason. With Force engines there is no easy way to ensure the pump will stop if the engine does so it is a very bad idea.

 

[Overbudgetwhocares]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

Doubled checked compression today before I have up for the evening and it was good. the valves are in correctly. I am meticulous about my work and double check everything while I work on it and made certain I installed them the same way I took them out. As fat as the crankcase compression you talk about is there a specific procedure and spec for testing this?

 

[Overbudgetwhocares]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

And I agree I can't rely on a test out of water, it's like road testing a car on a lift, almost useless

 

[Overbudgetwhocares]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

As far as the electric pump and i only ask this because I do not have a schematic for this engine but is there a signal wire from the stator I could use to power a relay that would no longer send a signal if rpm were to stop?

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

The stator does have a battery charging winding. The wires go to a full wave bridge rectifier and is converted to DC voltage to charge the battery. The output of the stator charge winding varies with RPM's from about 13 - 16 volts AC. You could either ....

1. Add another full wave bridge rectifier in parallel with the existing one just to power a 12 volt DC electric pump. The stator puts out about 9 AMPs. Not sure what affect this would have on the stator. Also, the tachometer runs off of one of the A.C. connections on the rectifier. It may affect it too.

2. Use the AC voltage to energize a 12 volt relay to power the fuel pump from the battery circuit.

Your in uncharted territory here so a little experimentation is needed.

Having said all that, it seems that you might just be putting a band aid on the problem. There are probably thousands and thousands of these 85 HP motors running fine with the original set up. One other thing to take a look at is the trigger and stator wires that run out from under the flywheel. Especially the trigger wires. When you push the throttle forward, the trigger and the wires move to advance the timing. It's not uncommon for the trigger wires to rub against the fly wheel or the block and short out when you move the throttle.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

pnwboat suggested the wires? Check all connections even grounds.
Even the battery cable can cause problems.
If I work on a "new" boat. I routinley replace the connectors on all the pieces/parts.
FrankA posted a linc@sinc on the top of the Force Forum.Do this.
Re-check the float levels.
Look at the reeds.
Then? Static timing?How did you acomplish this?What are the results?

 

[Overbudgetwhocares]

Re: 88 force 86hp. Say forever spent a fortune and no power under load

Been through all the wiring. Removed cleane and reinstalled every wire connection (corrosion runs rampid in the north easy) timing was with numbers 2&3 cylinders secondary lead grounded inductive pick up on number 1 throttle in hear at wot safety switch bypassed. Set it to the center mark of the 3 that were close together. That was the how I interpreted the procedure from a post I read on here someplace. After everyone's feedback and sleeping on it and reading a lot last night I think today's task after work is going to be to go back through the fuel system from the pump to the carbs. do you know what would be considered sufficient vacuum at the pump and could I run my feed from my tank directly to the carbs with someone pumping the primer bulb to run the engine and determine if the pump itself isn't sufficient to feed the carbs?