1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

[fishngolf]

Any and all help will be greatly appreciated. I have a 1997 Force 120 that is new to me last year. I replaced all the reeds and stator and got her up and running. End of the season had issues starting. I thought it was due to cold weather and old battery. This year I got a new battery and I am still having issues starting. It turned over ran for a few seconds then died now I cant even get it to turn past the compression stroke. Tried turning by hand/rope and it is very difficult. Took plugs out and it turns over just fine. I noticed that my prop always spun in neutral. I'm thinking that its having issues overcoming both compression and being slightly in gear. When it turns over should the prop be spinning? Can I try and start with the lower unit off for a few seconds?

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

99.9% of the time the problem you are having is electrical. If the battery is new and fully charged then the lead ends are proberly dirty and need cleaning. remove them and polish them thill they are shinny and try again this also includes the ground cable thats bolted to the motor. If that fails get a volt meter and put it on the positive bolt on the starter and the bolt where the ground wire is attached if it drops below 10.5 then the leads/connections/solinoid sound like the problem keep moving the positive lead of the volt meter towards the battery to find where there a voltage drop. if its over 11.5 and slow cranking then it may be the starter needs servicing. prop may turn kinda lazy when in neutral but it should not be locked in gear

 

[fishngolf]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

I checked and cleaned the cables all seemed fine. Had the battery tested and it was over 1000 CA. Prop only spins in one direction freely. Could it be slightly stuck in gear?

 

[foodfisher]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

No, it's either in gear or not. Starter is suspect now, if you really cleaned the connections.

 

[fishngolf]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

Cleaned with terminal brush and spray. I think my problem is that I am not in neutral. Prop only spins clockwise not both. What could I have done when I reinserted lower unit after changing impeller to cause this?

 

[foodfisher]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

Not just battery terminals. Solenoid connections, starter connections etc. Everything between batt. and starter. The new clue about the lower unit won't effect the elec. stuff. Someone else will have to school you on that.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

The prop turning while the motor turns over is NOT a problem.I'ts called friction.
The oil is thick the gear is turning and pushing the oil around.Not a problem.
If it's turning over without the plugs then you need to do a compression check.
Low compression in 1 cyl. can cause hard starting.
Then if it's ok,rebuild the starter.

 

[fishngolf]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

So I took the lower unit off and got it re-installed now back in proper gear. Lower unit was actually stuck in forward gear. Unfortunately, that did not solve my problem. The flywheel is now easier to turn but still the starter wont spin it past a quarter revolution or so. I think I'll have to take it in for a compression check. Any other ideas?

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

fix the electrical problem :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: lol sorry but you see this question of the starter will not turn over the engine but it will crank fine with the plugs out at least 4 times a week during the start of the season and 99.9% of the time its electrical. A good starter will either turn the motor, break something or catch on fire trying. The reason it has a safety on the motor to ensure its not in gear when you try to start is that it will turn over and start in gear (nice call on checking the lower but thats not the starter problem)

p.s you realy need to crank the engine to check compression or try to pull it over with a rope

 

[fishngolf]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

Is there a way that I can use jumper cables so that I can find out if the cable is internally corroded? I will be trying tomorrow one plug at a time to see if there is one problematic cylinder.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

To do a comp test.You remove all the plugs and test one hole at a time.
Most cases jumper cables have too small of a wire to really supply enough power.
Most have maybe a 10ga.some even a 12.
To really jump a starter you need a 4ga. or smaller.
A 2ga or smaller would be great.
My charger with a "jump" cycle has #4 wire.
Remove the starter,check it out?
Most times the cable is OK.the ends might need to be replaced. The cheap shiny one are just that,cheap!!!
Replace with copper.

 

[ZachDean]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

Same thing happed to me on my 35 hp force. I took apart my starter and cleaned the armature and the brush contacting surface with emery cloth. Now it works perfectly.

 

[fishngolf]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

Thanks for all the help guys. I went through tonight and wire brushed all the electrical connections from the solenoid on through to the starter. After brushing I cleaned with battery cleaner and put everything back together. Difference was night and day starter turns over fast and engine started right up. Should have taken a bit more time in cleaning the first time. THANKS again for the help.

 

[foodfisher]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

Pass it on.

 

[fishngolf]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

Hi Guys,

Unfortunately this did not solve my problem. It helped but in still having issues. Only getting 7 volts when starter is engaged. Took 3 plugs out and was still only getting 9 volts. Took all the plugs and I hear a click when I turn over by hand in the lower unit. Prop spins freely in both directions. Took starter off and cleaned. Doesn't appear to be cooked. Any ideas?

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

Compression test?
Sometime when the bearings start to drag in the lower it won't turn over as easy.
Not say'in there is a problem. But drop the lower and see if it turns over?

 

[fishngolf]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

Tried taking off the lower unit. Still came across the same issue. Having my starter checked but thinking about replacing battery cables to. Way to much of a drop in volts.

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

ok lets get a fresh set of electrical readings and hope for a quick fix

1/voltage at battery when cranking
2/voltage at solinoid battery side while cranking
3/voltage at solinoid starter side when cranking
4/voltage at starter when cranking

all tests are done after the negative cable ends have been removed and cleaned until shinny on the battery negative and the motor negative. On the motor side also clean the area that the cable is bolted to or a bad negative will give false results.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

My motor came originally with 6 gauge battery cables and I often had times when the starter acted like it was too weak to turn the motor over. I switched over to 2 gauge and now the starter spins the motor over like it doesn't even know it's there. Only draw back with 2 gauge cables is that they're thicker in diameter. Hard to get them through the opening in the cowl. I think I had to pull all the cables out and drill the plastic insert in the cowl opening larger to get them to work.

 

[fishngolf]

Re: 1997 Force 120 - Wont overcome compression starting

I dropped off the starter for rebuild but I have the voltage for tests 2-4. It would have been smart to test at battery during cranking. 6.5 volts at both sides of solenoid and starter itself. No load over 12 volts. My battery cable is 6 feet long its two in one for positive and negative most likely stock. Any ideas for a spot to find a reasonable replacement?