1996 Force 120 charging system problems

[Deferred]

Had my Force 120 about a year and the charging system will not charge batts. I have bought the snowmobile replacement reg/rec recommended from this forum. No help- sent it back. Another replacement reg/rec with exact part #883071A1 recomended by the forum. I bought another stator thinking the stator was not putting out AC voltage. No help. Pulled the flywheel for inspection, broken magnet(got to be the problem, right?). Sent it off for repair and rebuild. Reinstalled flywheel. No help.... I am reading voltage right out of the voltage regulator, so it is not wiring because the stator wiring and the reg/rec wiring is new. I am only reading batt voltage at any rpm.

So, new regulator, stator, and flywheel. Is there anything else in the charging system that I don't know about. Any ideas?

 

[Chad N]

Re: 1996 Force 120 charging system problems

I have seen some instances where severe corrosion and other junk will cause a large enough load to strain the system. Not saying this is the issue but definately something to take a look at. Also put your battery on a charger and then get it load tested at any auto parts store that actually puts a carbon pile load on the battery. It also may not be helping anything.

 

[emoney]

Re: 1996 Force 120 charging system problems

I'm sure you have, but just to confirm; have you tried different batteries?

 

[Deferred]

Re: 1996 Force 120 charging system problems

I have tried different batteries. I've tried 2 in parellel. I'm checking VDC right out of the reg/rec.and at battery and only getting 12.8 at best. I'm out of ideas, thinking of making a bracket for a car alternator and wrapping a belt around the flywheel to get a charge.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: 1996 Force 120 charging system problems

Let me chime in my 2 cents. Read and take note of the battery voltage with engine off. Start engine and take voltage reading from the input of the alternator, yellow wires this is AC volts so make sure the voltmeter is set properly. Usually, the stator will not put enough charging voltage unless it is at 1000~1500 RPM. The AC volts should be around 16~18 Vac at this RPM. If there is voltage, then the stator is working. Better yet, rev the engine a little bit around 2500 RPM and you should see the voltage go up to about 20 Vac.

Next, read the output of the rectifier and at this RPM it should be around 13~13.5 Vdc. If the voltage is the same as the battery voltage then there is no output from the rectifier. Turn off the engine and check to make sure the rectifier has proper grounding. if you used the universal regulator, you need to make sure the body of the unit is properly grounded in addition to the black wire. If there's still no output then it's time to replace the rectifier. For troubleshooting purposes you might want to use the cheaper non-regulated radioshack rectifier first shown here.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062584

 

[Deferred]

Re: 1996 Force 120 charging system problems

Thanx Jiggz, I will double check all that today but I have read that you have use a DVM to read VAC off the stator. But I will recheck the 2 yellows coming off the stator and verify a good ground at the reg/rec. Your link shows me ERROR 404, do you have a part number from Radio Shack I could order?

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 1996 Force 120 charging system problems

A single broken magnet will not cause a no charge condition. The alternator will still deliver 13-16 volts. It is not the number of magnets that controls voltage, it is the number of windings on the stator. Number of magnets will affect frequency and amperage. A missing magnet will cause running problems though and a low charging rate.

Check your wiring at the starting solenoid . I believe that even on these late Force engines with Mercury ignition there should be a smaller gauge wire attached to the battery side of the solenoid in addition to the power supply to the power t/t. This is how alternator voltage gets to the battery to charge it.

There should be a number of redundant grounds--check them all.

Also, check the in-line fuse. While a burned fuse will usually not allow starting, you may be wired a little differently. So, since you have a new to you engine with no history, cover all bases.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 1996 Force 120 charging system problems

The Radio Shack rectifier is just that....a full wave bridge rectifier. Your motor uses a Regulator/Rectifier assy. If I remember correctly, there were some problems with the generic replacement regulator/rectifiers. It had something to do with the wiring. If you wired it up according to what seemed logical from the color of the wires, it was actually wrong and would blow the regulator/rectifier assy. Maybe that's what has happened in your situation?? Or maybe it is good but just not wired correctly?? Just a guess, but I do remember several folks that had issues with the Snowmobile regulator/rectifier assy's and it had to do with the way the wires were hooked up.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: 1996 Force 120 charging system problems

Thanx Jiggz, I will double check all that today but I have read that you have use a DVM to read VAC off the stator. But I will recheck the 2 yellows coming off the stator and verify a good ground at the reg/rec. Your link shows me ERROR 404, do you have a part number from Radio Shack I could order?

The link works for me. The model # it says is 276-1185 (25A-50V full wave bridge rectifier). The reason I included this full-wave bridge rectifier (cost less than $7.00) is to make sure everything is working even though it lacks the regulator. By replacing it with this simple rectifier and the charging system starts to work OK, then you know for a fact the rectifier/regulator is the culprit and can replace it accordingly. But after switching with this and the system is still not charging, then you need to troubleshoot further. It's a cheap way to do a process of elimination instead of using a more expensive component.

 

[Deferred]

Re: 1996 Force 120 charging system problems

I never could get the link to pull up but stopped by R/Shack today and looked at their selection of rectifiers. Just from dumb luck I picked up 276-1185 mostly due to hook up easability and the rating(25A - 50V). Wired it in and now I'm getting ~16VDC off of idle. SWEEEET!Now can I put an inline resistor to regulate voltage right? Thanx for the help.....I was days away from dropping a stick of dynamite in a cylinder.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: 1996 Force 120 charging system problems

A plain resistor will only drop the voltage but not necessarily regulate it. You can buy a separate regulator and just add it to the ckt. Search e-bay or even amazon and you can find many different types and ampacity. You do not have to match the 50A rectifier but at least match the old rectifier rating, for this is the max output of the stator. If you still have the old universal rectifier/regulator you might want to try it again coz now you already know the only problem is the rectifier/regulator. Note, with a regulator and battery being fully charged, the output voltage will obviously decrease in response until the battery voltage goes down below 13 volts. Good on you on your troubleshooting skills!

 

[Deferred]

Re: 1996 Force 120 charging system problems

I was doing some research on the old universal rec/reg and it seems you don't hook them up according to color or you will smoke the diode. I hooked them according to color so that explains why that didn't work. The reg does not come with any schematic so most people just do the logical color match. I think I will try an inline regulator and see what happens. I am almost glad this happened because I would have never pulled the flywheel and discovered the broken magnets. I have seen what a broken or unglued magnet does at 3000RPM, its a train wreck.
One other thing is the gray tach wire. Can I piggy back it to one of the yellow stator wires at the rectifer to get tach indication?

 

[Jiggz]

Re: 1996 Force 120 charging system problems

Yes, the gray wire is the tach signal input wire and it connects to one of the yellow wires. I used the universal rect/reg and so far the color coding seems to work for me. On the output side, the black wire on negative or ground while the red wire on the positive or battery. Obviously the two yellow wires goes to the stator wires and making sure the body is also properly grounded. One thing I noticed about this rect/reg is it takes a few seconds before it starts indicating output and slowly builds up to about 13.5 Vdc.

 

[Deferred]

Re: 1996 Force 120 charging system problems

I work this weekend so I will swing back by Radio Shack to shop for an inline regulator next week. I'm puzzled why 2 voltage regulators did not work and that was obviously the problem. I do not want to go back to buying another one of those so I'll figure something out. Thanx for all your help.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: 1996 Force 120 charging system problems

Well, if you happen to come up with a mod that works using RShacks' component don't shy away on sharing it with the forum. This is exactly how this forum improves and help those in need free of charge.