89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

scottmm73

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Gentlemen,

I've been working on my 89 Force 85 HP (it's attached to a 89 Maxum 1700 MA). Initially running on the muffs it seemed to purr (I'm obviously wrong in this regard as you will see later). I decided to take it to the lake and do initial tests on the boat and motor before I took my family out. The hull is sound, after some minor repairs, however the engine would not stay running while dropped in the lake. After killing the battery trying to get it started, my father in law and I decided to take it home and do some trouble shooting. I did some work on the carbs and noticed that the #3 carb was leaking with pressure from the bulb. I ordered a carb rebuild kit and in the mean time I decided to do a mini-tune-up. First I checked compression, the #1 and #2 both sported 120 psi, but the #3 would not hold above 25 psi. After inspecting the spark plugs, I noticed on the #3 spark plug that there is a groove beside the electrode (picture attached; groove is at the 6 o'clock position on the #3 spark plug; #1 on left #3 on right). Viewing the top of the piston through the spark plug hole, I noticed a lot of fouling (carbon; pic kinda fuzzy) on the piston. This makes me hope that it is just a blown head gasket. As you can see in the pic the #3 spark plug appears steam cleaned compared to the other two, another sign the head gasket is blown. Also around the mating surfaces of the head and the block some corrosion appears to be taking hold. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it is nothing more severe. I know some people recommend using TCW-3 in the cylinder and rechecking compression (see if its a stuck ring). As a novice and a lack of a nearby marina, what is TCW-3 and can you use a substitute?

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I also decided to check spark, the first coil produced a good spark, however when attempting to check the second the boat decided to take a nap. I got nothing from the ignition. I began checking wires with a volt meter and I received 12.2 volts up to the terminal block. I then checked the B term (Battery) on the ignition switch and I only got 1.4 volts. This appears to be a ground/feeder fault in the wire somewhere. Correct? My question is this. Where does the wire come off the terminal block and feed into the ignition switch? The B term has a red wire but the term block doesn't have a red wire leaving it. I'm slightly confused.

Summary, for those who haven't read above:

Q1 What is TCW-3 and can you use a substitute?

Q2 Where does the wire come off the terminal block and feed into the ignition switch? The B term has a red wire but the term block doesn't have a red wire leaving it. I'm slightly confused.
 

scottmm73

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Messages
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Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

Well, ignition problems solved. I checked the in-line fuses, one had some corrosion. I cleaned it off and all is working well now. It may have just been coincidence though. Spark looks good throughout.


Eh, the bounties of google. Figured out what TCW-3 is. Now off to see if it may change the compression numbers.
 
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foodfisher

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Feb 18, 2009
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3,756
Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

Try a decarb. Top of engine forum FAQ, second page, fourth up from bottom.
 

scottmm73

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Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

Well after trying TCW-3 in the #3 cylinder and no improvement on the compression, I decided to pull the head. Bad...Bad...Bad News. I'm floored, this is why an impulse purchase is a bad thing. Things I've learned now. Check compression before purchase, I just believed if the engine ran fine, all would be ok. Pictures below. Recommendations please? Frank A, since you are in PA...do you have any 88-89 85 Forces?

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#3 Piston at angle

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#3 Piston from above

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#2 Piston at angle

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#2 Piston from above

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#1 Piston at angle

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#1 Piston from above
 

jerryjerry05

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17,926
Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

There are covers on the side.One has the fuel pump.
Remove them and check for damage on the skirts.
Your gonna have to remove them anyway for a rebuild.
That piston with the 1 on it makes me believe it's been worked on before.
Never seen a stock piston with #s stammped in it.
If the hole isin't too bad it MIGHT???? be just a hone and replace the piston.

Look around for a second motor.Any Force till the early 90"s and some Chryslers will bolt right up.
Make sure the replacement has the same size drive shaft.
They come in 20" and 25"
 

scottmm73

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Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

Thanks for the advice Jerry. I'm in the process of building a motor stand right now. I will definitely open it and check for more damage. I was wondering about the stamp on the piston,myself. It is hard to tell but I don't believe the #3 has a stamp on it. I also felt the #3 cylinder walls with my fingers as I can not get below the housing support plate. When I felt it, there was definitely a groove running the length of the cylinder wall. I will try and get a pic. Depending on the depth of the groove and if the head was reworked, I could go up to a .040 larger piston. But that is only if the groove is less correct? And If I do one, I'll have to do them all. As far as the drive shaft goes, I have the two piece. Where do you measure from to determine the length or is it blatantly obvious?

I was looking at powerheads for the motor and I seen the Crowley's sells remanned powerheads, depending on the seriousness of the damage I just may go that route. I wonder what freight costs are from CO to PA. I'm still hoping Frank A will respond, with hopes he may have one to sell. I found a powerhead (89) on Ebay from PA but it is taken apart and the seller says that the engine is good, but after the above debacle I don't know if I could trust em.
 

scottmm73

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Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

Well today was the day I was going to attempt to lift the motor off the boat to a stand I had standing by in the basement. I then had my 6 year old tell me that the toilet wasn't flushing. This is what I spent today doing.

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First I have to thank dh4winn79 for the stand blue prints and my daughter's boyfriend's dad for the engine hoist. I did get the mount nuts removed before I was wisked away to deal with the sewage back-up.

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All is repaired now, saved a ton doing the work myself but it was a long messy day. Tomorrow the motor comes off the boat and tear down to see how bad it really is.
 

jerryjerry05

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Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

Don't go to .040 over.
Do .010 or .020 that way if it screws up again you got room to dig deeper.
My daughter just had to do the yard bit too.
Only need to do 1 hole.

Measure the transom from the top edge to the drain plug .Close to 20 or 25.
They stopped putting the long shafts and made them in pieces so people can swap them eaiser.
 

scottmm73

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Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

Yeah, Jerry after the tear down, I'm going to measure the cylinder. The 1 stamp on the pistons has me wondering if the cylinders have been bored out already. With the groove in the 3rd cylinder I may have to go to .030. I'll have to get a depth gauge and determine the damage it has done. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will just be pistons, rings, head and cylinder bore. But I was keeping my fingers crossed on the blown head gasket.

Anyone have comments on Wiseco's pistons?
 

jerryjerry05

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Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

Yup, use them.
Easier to install than OEM.
OEM you have to press in the wrist pin.
Wiseco they just go together and have keepers on the end of the pin.
 

scottmm73

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Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

Got the motor off the boat and was able to partially disassemble. The flywheel is seized onto the crankshaft. I have the flywheel puller applying pressure while I have it soaked with penetrating oil. Hopefully tomorrow it will come free.

I have removed the exhaust port cover and all appears well. I did find part of an impeller inside. I just replaced it before I had my lake trials, so I will remove the lower unit again just to be sure it wasn't the new one.

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I also removed the intake cover. All looks good including the reed plates. The crankshaft has some corrosion on the #3 lobe. There was obviously water inside as the exhaust cover had a little in it. The lower bearings as seen through the connecting rod cap seem ok. They'll all be replaced any ways.

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You can see the grooves in the #3 cylinder wall, these were what I felt before the teardown.

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The good news is that the #3 cylinder is at the original bore diameter. Which means I will have .040 to play with. Hopefully I can bore it out only .010 to get rid of the grooves. One quick question as this is a new thing for me (I've never had to bore out a multiple piston engine before). Do I bore out all the cylinders or just the damaged one?

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I'm going to take a break as of right now. Going to do some research on the pistons and rods and make some dinner for the family. Anyone have any good ideas on how to remove a seized flywheel? I'm all ears.
 

foodfisher

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Feb 18, 2009
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Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

Having pressure on the puller will squeeze any gaps smaller. I would soak before applying pressure.
 

scottmm73

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Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

Well I finally got the flywheel off, it just needed a 32 oz persuasion. I've taken the pistons out and realized that the #2 also decided to let it's rings go and the #1 lower ring is siezed in its groove. There is a small score in that #2 cylinder also.

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So, here is where I'm at. I have not separated the block and removed the crankshaft. Should I leave it as is? Or should I remove the crankshaft before I take it to the machinist to be rebored.

Speaking of machinist, I don't live close to marine mechanics, can I take the block to small engine repair shop to have it rebored? I know some very reputable small engine guys, hopefully they have the equipment to do a rebore.

As far as tolerances go, the block has not been rebored as I said in previous posts, all three cylinders are at their stock size of 3.312", should I just have the machinist do a bore and final hone of 3.330",which is two sizes larger, or should I have him go in increments to see if the scores are removed at 3.320".

Items needing replaced
Fuel Lines
Fuel pump
Flywheel nut
all nylon lock nuts
#1 and #2 Carb repair

Items needing inspected
Flywheel
Stator
Trigger
Reed Assemblies
Electrical Harness
CDI's and coils

Items may or may not need replacement
Lower unit seals and gaskets?

When I purchased the boat, I replaced the impeller and the lower unit oil. I did find water in the lower unit. Since everything is all apart is this a good idea to replace the seals and gaskets?

Please, advise.

A thank you has to go out to Frank A. A post he made on flywheel removal was what it took to remove it. I tried heating the flywheel but I didn't know how hot to make it, his part gave me good details as what I could do. 5 minutes later the flywheel was removed.

Also, I'd like to thank those that have responded in my thread. Thanks for the push jerryjerry and foodfisher.
 

pnwboat

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Oct 8, 2007
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4,251
Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

I've learned that the best folks to determine how far to bore the cylinder are the folks at the machine shop. I've inquired at many regular automotive machine shops about boring an outboard block. As far as I can remember, none of them would do it. I realize that you may not have any other option, but if you can, have a shop that has experience in doing outboard blocks take a look at your block and have the machinist tell you what size pistons to get. Buying the pistons before you get it looked at can sometimes be an expensive mistake.

I have had good luck with the Wiesco forged pistons. They have also floating wrist pins which make assembly much easier, but requires special wrist pin bearings. Make sure you use a lot of 2-stoke oil on the pistons when you assemble it, and double the amount of oil mixed with the fuel during break-in.

The crankshaft has some crankcase seals which look exactly like piston rings. When you go to re-install the crankshaft in the block, these seals have to be properly positioned or you may break them. Very easy to break one and they're cheap. I usually keep a few spares "just in case".

A seal kit for the lower unit is around $50 and pretty easy to install if the motor hasn't been in salt water. The lower unit propeller shaft bearing carrier can be a bear to remove if the lower unit is corroded.
 

scottmm73

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Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

Jerry I found a used powerhead on ebay, its an 1986 force 85. Would this bolt on?
 

Frank Acampora

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12,004
Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

Scottman: I have not had internet access for a couple of days due to a lightning strike. I have quite a number of Chrysler and Force blocks. See my private message to you
 

scottmm73

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Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

Bump, anyone? 86 Powerhead on ebay, can it be used with my components for the 89?
 

jerryjerry05

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Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

e-bay # ??
An 89 can be swapped for an 86
See FrankA he might have a deal??
 

scottmm73

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Re: 89 Force 85 HP #3 cylinder compression and ignition woes

Sent him a PM, gonna call him monday.

motor found here

As you can see below, I've found someone to rebore my block. However, I would still like a back-up lower unit.
 
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