1988 Force 125 HP Electrical Problems

hhcochris

Recruit
Joined
Jul 10, 2011
Messages
5
I'll post a quick summary of my problems up top, and then after that I'll post the information I wanted to, but realized it's incredibly long and would be easy to lose track of what I'm asking...you can read the long part for additional details of my problem if you want to...thanks in advance.

I just bought a completely rebuilt 1988 Force 125 HP motor a month or two ago. I was told by the dealer that it's basically a brand new engine, and it definitely looks the part...everything under the hood looks like it just rolled off the assembly line, so I know that the electrical components I'm having problems with are all new.

I took out the boat for the first time, and it drove great for the 10 minutes I was driving it. I tried to trim the motor up while driving to get it to plane better, but the trim wouldn't go up. I stopped after the 10 minutes, and nothing worked-the tilt/trim was dead, and the motor wouldn't start. It was like I had no battery connected to it...the battery was brand new and freshly charged, and I hooked up my accessories to the battery and they worked fine, so I know the battery had power.

I called the dealer and was told to check the circuit breaker...turns out that was the problem...it just tripped, and I had to reset it...so the motor turned over, and the tilt/trim went up and down...

I took it out a second time, and everything worked for like 10-20 minutes...but again, as I was driving and trying to trim up the motor, nothing happened...I figured it was the same problem, but the breaker wasn't tripped this time...I turned the motor off, and it started right back up again without a problem. The trim also went down, but it wouldn't go up. I heard the relay clicking when I tried to trim up, so I switched the two relays around and the motor went up, but not down...so I know the "down" relay was bad...so I've ordered replacements, but my concern is that I've had two semi-related problems, and I'm worried there's some underlying problem...could anyone out there give any suggestions as to what would cause the breaker to trip and the relays to go out?

I read somewhere that there used to be a 3 wire harness around the relay area or something, but it was updated to a 2 wire harness...something like that...mine has the 2 wire harness going to the relays (one for up, one for down) on the trim/tilt...so I don't know if they updated the harness but had something wrong, or what else could be going on.

I just got this motor, and want to make it works and is reliable...any advice on what would be causing these problems would be appreciated...if you think they're related, or just two separate "luck of the draw" problems that probably won't continue, or if my gut feeling is right, and there's some kind of electrical problem that's causing the breaker to trip and the relays to go out...thanks in advance for the help....













Here's the "long version" of the post, with additional details:







This past April (2012), I had a 1988 Force 125HP motor put on my 1984 Starcraft 18' "bass tracker style" boat. It replaced a blown '85 Evinrude 90HP V4 motor. I was told by the dealer I bought it from that the Force motor was completely rebuilt from top to bottom over the past winter, and would be great on my boat. I had them professionally install it, and they even completely replaced my steering cables/system with a new one, as they said my old system was getting pretty bad...

I was really excited, since the boat weighs very little (it's aluminum), and rides pretty high in the water to begin with. So far, I've taken the boat out twice...and each time I had a problem...the dealer said it was already broken in, and I could go wide open right away without a problem. The first time ever taking it out, I drove for around 10 minutes...I was still cautious, and took it very slowly to wide open throttle. There were no signs of problems, and the engine ran great (although it seemed a tad slow, as I expected close to 50 mph, but only got it up to around 40...anyway). As I was driving, I tried to raise the motor (it has power tilt/trim) to get the boat to plane a little better, but noticed it wasn't going up. I decided to stop and fish for a while, and planned on raising the motor up so it wouldn't drag and affect the bow mounted trolling motor...but it wouldn't go up...

On top of that, nothing worked...the engine wouldn't start, and the tilt/trim wouldn't go up or down. It was just like I had a dead battery...no clicking sounds from the motor or anything...it was like it was completely dead...I had it connected to the old battery that I thought was still good, but being prepared, I also had a brand new, freshly charged battery with, since the boat had been sitting for a year (I forgot about it with the blown motor, and the battery froze more than a few times over the winter...I'm from MN, so even though we had a warm winter this year, it was still cold enough to freeze several times over). I hooked up the new battery, and still...nothing...

After using the trolling motor to get back to the dock, I called up the dealer I bought it from. The tech there said it was most likely a breaker that had tripped...sure enough it was. Ok, simple fix...I reset the breaker, and everything worked again beautifully...so with this new knowledge, I decided to take the boat out a second time...

The tilt/trim and motor all worked fine this next time...for about 10 minutes again...Actually, the motor worked fine, and the tilt down worked fine, however I couldn't raise the motor at all. I took off the engine cover and had my wife press the "up" button for me. I could hear a click coming from the relay switch as she pressed the button, so I knew the relay was done for. Testing my theory, I switched the two relays around, and sure enough, the motor would go up, but not down...

I've already ordered two new relays, and even added a new starter solenoid to the basket (just in case of future problems). My problem with this whole deal is that it seems strange to me that there were two related electrical issues with the tilt/trim (breaker tripped, and relay went out). The dealer had to have been right about completely rebuilding the motor, because it looks brand new...there was no grease/dirt anywhere (even in the hard to reach places where it would have been nearly impossible to clean), and all the metal parts were shiny, with no wear shown at all on any of the pieces.

So I know the problem isn't that they used old, worn out parts, and they're just going out now...these parts were brand new...when I took out the relays, they looked like they came right out of the package...no marks from plugging/unplugging, scratches, or anything...would anyone have any ideas on what could be causing these electrical problems with the tilt/trim relays and breaker? This is my first Force engine, and I know I read something about converting from a 3 wire harness to a two wire harness for the relays...mine has the updated 2 wire harness...but I don't know much more than that...

It just seems like I'm going to keep having small problem after small problem with this, and would really like to know if this is something that can be figured out easily, or if I'm going to have to do some major electrical investigation. I tried bringing back to the dealer, but I was basically told that they don't service Force engines, and my "hand shake" warranty that was supposed to be for 3 months got shortened to 1 month (go figure...I should have known better...get everything in writing...), and I got the impression they don't want anything to do with this...which worries me even more...

Any help/advice on what could be causing these electrical problems with the tilt/trim relays, circuit breakers, and other potential problems would be greatly appreciated. I'm fairly handy with doing things myself, as long as I have some type of guide to go off of, but I don't know if I can easily diagnose the problem, or if I should just give in and spend the extra money to take it in to a dealer that services Force engines in the area...again, any advice is appreciated, and I apologize for the very long post (I tend to do that)...
 

jerryjerry05

Supreme Mariner
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
17,923
Re: 1988 Force 125 HP Electrical Problems

A NEW???? 1988.They just rebuilt the powerhead.
The electrical system is 24 years old.
You need to check the whole system.
Some boats are wired through the dash(small fuse panel).
Go through EVERYTHING.Check all grounds.
Check all positive connections.Replace any that are suspect.
The motor has to buss bars on the motor.Check and replace as needed.
The T/T system.Change relays and clean contacts again.
The only difference between the 2 and 3 wire is one has a ground wire.
 

hhcochris

Recruit
Joined
Jul 10, 2011
Messages
5
Re: 1988 Force 125 HP Electrical Problems

I guess I didn't ask specifically what was all done/gone over, but they told me everything (from a-z) had been gone over, and they replaced anything that was even close to going bad. The funny thing is that they water tested it two different times to make sure everything was kosher, and everything worked perfectly before I picked it up...the lead man working on it was an older guy who had been working on motors for 30 years...I talked to him when I picked up the boat, and asked him if there was anything at all he would recommend I do with the boat or anything else...

He said my transom was starting to get a little soft, but as long as I didn't abuse it, it should last for several more years before I needed to act on it. He also said I should wire my accessories a bit differently, but I was going to wait on that until I decided what I was going to do with my console. As a "dad and son" project, we totally reconditioned the boat when we bought it about 6 years ago. We replaced all the wood flooring/carpet, console, and the accessories wiring (we also ran a watertight PVC pipe down the center, and ran all the wires through that...plus put in a pull cord in case we ever decided to add additional accessories later)...he even made a nice teak face for the console (he's a woodworker by trade). Because of the old steering system being hard to turn, the console has loosened up a bit, and I have to figure out what to do with that, and then we'll re-wire some of those accessories...but the motor and tilt/trim are completely separate from all of that.

When I took the cover off of the engine, it really looked like everything was new...all the black plastic (relays, other electrical components) was jet black...nothing was faded at all...unlike my old engine that was shot...when I took that cover off, I could definitely tell there was quite a bit of wear and tear inside (the black plastic peices were faded to a grey color, or they were starting to turn grey on the corners/edges). In the new engine, all of the housings around the wires were great looking (not cracked, stiff, or worn at all), and all of the connections were bright and shiny (not dull, flat, or worn)...even all of the wires/connectors going to the "buss bars" are shiny and new looking. The engine/tilt/trim isn't wired through the dash-only (obviously) to the control box, so there's nothing to worry about there.

I will go over the entire engine this weekend when I intend to install the new relays (comming this Friday). I'll definitely take note of everything mentioned, and I hope I can find something to explain what's going on. This will sound very non technical, but could there be anything related to the tilt/trim as far as keeping water out of the electrical components? The way it's acting, it almost seems like something's getting wet and causing the tilt/trim to short out. If I recall, there was a rubber plug or something somewhere on the tilt/trim...I thought I made sure that was tight, but if there was something wrong with some type of seal (intended to keep water out), I could rationalize that a little easier than something wrong with the wiring in the engine compartment (based on my initial impression of the condition of the electrical components "under the hood"). Thank you for your suggestions.

Chris
 

jerryjerry05

Supreme Mariner
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
17,923
Re: 1988 Force 125 HP Electrical Problems

Trim/Tilt,Loosen the fill or the front fitting.Check for water in the oil.
Then if it's full.The hyd.pump either has 20wt motor oil or tranny fluid.
Go on to checking the electric motor.
Possible it has water in it.
Possible the brushes are shot.
Just setting for years with the cover on is not good for a motor.No air circulation= corrosion.

Hard steering could be a sticky cable(replace) or a sticky corroded steering tube(clean,oil).
Sent U a PM.
 

hhcochris

Recruit
Joined
Jul 10, 2011
Messages
5
Re: 1988 Force 125 HP Electrical Problems

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll have to try that sometime soon, hopefully this weekend. I double checked all the connections, wires, etc., and they all looked fine. The interesting thing was that after I installed 2 brand new relays, I took it out again, and (at this point) to no surprise, after about 10 minutes of driving, the "up" relay went out again.

I figured I would just bring it in to a dealer that serviced Force engines, so when I found one in my area (it's a different dealer than the one I bought the motor from), I gave them a call. I described what was going on, and the tech there told me it sounded like I just got a bad relay. I stressed to him that I suspected something else was going on, since it's gone through 2 relays now (4 if you include the "good ones" I didn't re-use), plus the "tripped breaker" problem. He said if it was his boat, he would first try to get another pair of relays and try that out.

While I agree this is the faster/cheaper potential fix, I have no doubt that I'll have to make sure my trolling motor batteries are charged up, because I know this is going to happen again. I'm going to look for another place to take the motor, since I wasn't filled with confidence after the conversation with the last tech. I will definitely try to check the things you mentioned, although I'm afraid what you described is reaching the limits of my technical capabilities. It may actually be simple, and maybe I'll have to find a repair manual somewhere, but where is the "fill/front fitting" you're talking about? Could you describe what it looks like, so I know I'm tearing apart the right thing?

The electric motor issue you're talking about sounds like the most likely thing to me. From what's happened, I would think that it has to be something causing either a surge in power, or something like that...thus the reason for the breaker being tripped and the relays going out...is there anything else that could be causing a power surge (or the electrical equivalent of that)? A friend of mine had a similar problem, and it was some motor being shot (or something else like that) that was causing the voltage to either fall or jump out of spec.
 

Justinde

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 11, 2010
Messages
431
Re: 1988 Force 125 HP Electrical Problems

My 1988 did the same, then, after a few weeks of checking relays, circuit breakers and the like, the battery wasn't tight enough at the connection- so- check that your battery is connected 100%....
 
Top