Force 90 HP bogging down.

[hamtoy1]

Hi,
I have a 1962 Delmar Glasspar Cuddy Cabin Cruiser with a Force 90 HP motor 1979.
I am having issues with it bogging down.
It will idle and run like new for about an hour then starts to bog down, missfire and then die.
I have had a mechanic look at it for over two years now. BTY I am not a mechanic.
I have had the fuel pump rebuilt. New water pump. Rebuilt carbs and fuel lines.
New gas tank etc etc but with no joy.
I was told that the only thing left was to replace the electricals. Like the CD module, coil, distributor etc.
Would this REALLy help or might it be something else?
I am getting very frustrated with all this. All I want to do is run the boat on the water but it won't.

 

[hamtoy1]

Re: Force 90 HP bogging down.

Well I finally tracked down what issue was.
A cracked rotor.
Bought one from Laing's Outboards.
All in need to do now is to get it installed.
I hope this was the only issue.
Now if only the weather would co operate so i could get a decent run on a lake with her to try her out.

 

[roscoe]

Re: Force 90 HP bogging down.

Hi, welcome to iboats, and welcome back.

I can't believe you didn't get a reply back in August, sorry.

Hopefully the rotor will fix it.

If not, look at things that would be effected by heat. The longer you run the motor, the hotter things get.

I would look to the coil(s). They can definitely start to fail when they get hot.

 

[hamtoy1]

Re: Force 90 HP bogging down.

Hi, welcome to iboats, and welcome back.

I can't believe you didn't get a reply back in August, sorry.

Hopefully the rotor will fix it.

If not, look at things that would be effected by heat. The longer you run the motor, the hotter things get.

I would look to the coil(s). They can definitely start to fail when they get hot.

So I got a rotor and the mechanic installed it but could not get the timing right. Turns out that the cam was not aligned with the spline on the shaft. Its about 45 degrees off. Can I drift off the cam with a brass drift to re align it or is is sweat soldered on or heat up the shaft to soften the glue holding the head onto the rotor? Seems like it was put on with epoxy glue, which can be softened with moderate heat, like a heat gun. The head is made of bakalite so it can take moderate heat.
I only have the one rotor. No more available. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Force 90 HP bogging down.

First off, you mean Chrysler, don't you? Force was not made until 1984. Is your engine a three cyllinder 90 or a four cylinder 90?

If you are putting a four cylinder rotor into a three cylinder engine, the lobes will be off and there will be one too many.

Third---Post a couple of photos. Your description does not match your engine year UNLESS someone retro-fitted it. Late model distributors had electric eye and shutter. Early model distributors had points and cam. AND I think that in 1979 Chrysler switched to non-distributor Prestolite CD ignition.---might have been mid-year though.

The cam or shutter and the rotor are epoxied to the shaft and I think they are also pinned. It would be almost impossible to get one on incorrectly and again--unless the previous owner dicked it up, it would never have left the manufacturer improperly aligned. You would most likely destroy the rotor or shutter if you tried to disassemble the rotor/shaft assembly.

The pulley up top IS located by a woodruff key and if the key is missing, it is quite reasonable to think the pulley is not correctly installed.

The pulley MUST be aligned with the flywheel with the engine at Top Dead Center. Set the 0 mark on the flywheel to the long line on the block pointer and then rotate the pulley until the curved line matches the curve of the flywheel and the straight line points directly at the flywheel. Then tighten the distributor drive belt.

Once you get these pointers squared away, get back. I may have a couple of different shafts and cams in my garage.

 

[hamtoy1]

Re: Force 90 HP bogging down.

First off, you mean Chrysler, don't you? Force was not made until 1984. Is your engine a three cyllinder 90 or a four cylinder 90?

If you are putting a four cylinder rotor into a three cylinder engine, the lobes will be off and there will be one too many.

Third---Post a couple of photos. Your description does not match your engine year UNLESS someone retro-fitted it. Late model distributors had electric eye and shutter. Early model distributors had points and cam. AND I think that in 1979 Chrysler switched to non-distributor Prestolite CD ignition.---might have been mid-year though.

The cam or shutter and the rotor are epoxied to the shaft and I think they are also pinned. It would be almost impossible to get one on incorrectly and again--unless the previous owner dicked it up, it would never have left the manufacturer improperly aligned. You would most likely destroy the rotor or shutter if you tried to disassemble the rotor/shaft assembly.

The pulley up top IS located by a woodruff key and if the key is missing, it is quite reasonable to think the pulley is not correctly installed.

The pulley MUST be aligned with the flywheel with the engine at Top Dead Center. Set the 0 mark on the flywheel to the long line on the block pointer and then rotate the pulley until the curved line matches the curve of the flywheel and the straight line points directly at the flywheel. Then tighten the distributor drive belt.

Once you get these pointers squared away, get back. I may have a couple of different shafts and cams in my garage.

Hi,

Thanks for the update.
It has force on the cover of the engine but Chrysler on the motor. It is a three cylinder 1978 according to the serial number 907HA so according to people who know these things H is 8 so it was built in 1978. OK so no messing with the rotor trying to fix it.
Enclosed are some images of the original and new rotor.




The mechanic removed the flywheel so I am assuming he knows what he is doing.
I will copy and paste your blog to my iPad so I can discuss this with him.

Thanks.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Force 90 HP bogging down.



Chrysler sold out to US marine in 1984 and the name became Force. The first year or two, nothing was changed EXCEPT the decals. The cover color was still white. Thus: an early Force hood can fit on a Chrysler engine and the engine for all intents and purposes becomes a Force.

In 1978, the Motorola ignition used an electric eye and a plastic shutter on the distributor shaft. Earlier year Chrysler engines used a cam and points.Thus you can rest assured that someone has retro-fit the engine --probably because the electric eye failed.

Yes, surprisingly enough, the cam IS off in relation to the keyway and that can cause problems in trying to set the timing. I would consider that a freak occurrence UNLESS someone messed with it. The marina you bought it from should make good on it so notify them and ask for your money back. I am curious: Back a couple of years ago, a used rotor assembly was going for 45 bucks. What did you pay?

There is no need to remove the flywheel unless you are going to change the distributor drive belt or are checking for a broken key--probably why he did it. When reassembled, the flywheel nut is torqued to 95 foot pounds.

I will check my garage to see if I have any of the cammed three cylinder rotor assemblies. Look for a private message from me.

OK! This is the ONLY 3 lobe cam dist shaft I have. Next couple of photos show correct tension of dist drive belt: A .010 feeler gauge should depress the belt about 3/16 inch before bending. Too tight and the engine will have shifting problems. Next shows a 1978 Motorola distributor ignition on a 4 cylinder engine. Last photo shows a one piece lower unit. If you have this one, then for sure your engine is 1977-78.

Note that Chrysler used the same distributor body for three and four cylinder engines. Note also that they used the same body for points and electric eye ignitions. If you wanted to convert later, all you would need to do is drill one hole for an extra terminal. in the last photo, you can see two wires attached to the side of the electric eye "electronic" distributor.

Correct setting of the points is .014 open on the high point of the lobe

 

[hamtoy1]

Re: Force 90 HP bogging down.

Hi,
Thank you for your prompt reply.
That's what my mechanic said, that the lobes were off. I paid $100. The dealer said it was new but it has a small crack in the bakalite.
OK not sure if the mechanic removed the flywheel or not. I will check.
Thanks for looking for the cam shaft. This definitely looks like the one. I am assuming it has the bakalite top. Just asking.
I would be only too willing to buy it from you.Contact me privately.
Looking at the last photo the lower unit looks just like mine.
Thanks and Regards.

 

[hamtoy1]

Re: Force 90 HP bogging down.



I searched my computer but only found this image of my boat. You can just see the motor at the back.
I thought you might like to see it.
It is an old Delmar Glaspar I think it is 1962.

 

[hamtoy1]

Re: Force 90 HP bogging down.

Sent you a private message.

 

[hamtoy1]

Re: Force 90 HP bogging down.

Hi again,
I found out what the problem was. Someone had mounted the CD module directly to the block causing it to heat up and bog the boat down. Once we had put rubber spacers between the CD module and the block the boat now runs well.

 

[hamtoy1]

Re: Force 90 HP bogging down.

Hello again.
Well it was not the CD module being mounted to the block that was the problem.
I took the boat out and it would not start again.
So..... I removed the engine cover.
Wires from the buss to the CD module were touching the flywheel and had rubbed the insulation off the wires.
I decided to replace the CD module. $285 later. I ran the boat on the lake again for 1 1/2 hours with no bogging down.
So let's think about this.
There is a capacitor in the CD module that has plates in it that are separated by let's say insulation. If over time this breaks down it can cause problems.
The probability theory says if you have removed and replaced or repaired everything else like points, rotor, stator, rebuilt the carbs then the probability of it being the CD module is quite high.
Lesson learned.

 

[emoney]

Re: Force 90 HP bogging down.

Good post, hamtoy and glad to hear you got your issue fixed. Another lesson in this that's to be gleaned is that this wiring on these older motors gets frail and needs replaced. I think we all ignore the wiring and connectors (except for JerryJerry05 } and only focus on it when a problem arises. It would do everyone good to inspect their wires and replace what looks worn.