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Cylinder #3 doesn't fire on 90HP Force '90

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  • Cylinder #3 doesn't fire on 90HP Force '90

    Hello, I was hoping for some recommendations. I am seeing that cylinder #3 doesn't give a spark, #1 and #2 are good. #3 is on its own ignition pack. I have checked it's not the spark plug and not the coil. Before investing into a new ignition pack, it would be great if I could identify if that's the problem or something else. Any pointers or suggestions?
    Thanks, Ferenc

  • #2
    Check the thin wires at terminal board, they break under the heat shrink tube and gives bad connection.

    The cyl.1 and 2 are controled from CD pack #1 and cyl.3 from #2 CD.
    Each CD contains 2 channels soo there is one in pack 2 there is not in use.

    Comment


    • #3
      The wires he's talking about are the trigger wires.
      IF???? one is broken under the wrap??
      Replace them ALL even the ones from the pack and stator.



      ​You can swap the packs around and see if the no spark follows the pack??

      ​What color pack? Blue or black?


      ​Put in a signature on your posts, location, boat type etc.
      ​You never know we could be neighbors??


      Buy American made Cars and Trucks!!!Towing insurance for a boat,a GREAT thing.
      ​Tools to make my life easier: Battery tester, die grinder, temp.gun, compression tester, DVA meter.

      In Scenic , Beautiful San Sebastian by the sea Florida

      88 Bayliner 21CC 2001 Mercury 225 HP EFI

      Comment


      • #4
        Thank you for the responses, gives me some pointers to look into. They are the blue packs. I was trying to avoid having to rewire both packs, but I may end up having to. I did notice that pack #2 has one channel free (the one that would be used on a four-cylinder setup). I tried to connect coil #3 to that, to see if that might give spark, but no spark on that either. I wasn't sure if that would be because that's not activated in the stator (or somewhere else) on a 3-cylinder setup.

        Until I figure out the signature on iboats: I'm in Milton, NH. Boat is a 1989 Bayliner 16', motor is 90HP

        Comment


        • #5
          ferencg, please take Nordin and JerryJerry05's advice before you invest a dime in a pack (like I foolishly did) or any other component. I also own a 1990 Force 90 just like yours (it's on a Bayliner 18' Runabout that I have rigged with a kicker for fishing). What those guys are talking about is VERY cheap, easy to do, and most important is the first logical step to be followed for your situation. Don't assume any component is bad until you've checked all connections. The chances of both ignition circuits in your #2 pack being bad is far less (although not impossible) than the likelihood of broken wires on your trigger leads. As JerryJerry said, if you find one bad, just redo them all (so that problem won't come back to bite you again on possibly another cylinder). You don't need to rewire packs, just go to your trigger leads and give them a little tug, see if any give way. Also, you can disconnect all your trigger leads (don't worry they're numbered and each one is uniquely color coded-they idiot-proofed it for guys like me). Put an ohm-meter on each pair of leads, one set at a time and flex each wire in its terminal. If you get ANY intermittent continuity, don't second-guess it, just replace the terminal (solder or crimp) and ensure a good solid connection on each pair of trigger wires. As Jerry said, you can do the same for your pack leads as well. Also, you said #3 coil is goo, did you try to swap the #3 coil up to #1 or #2 to see if the misfire moves with the coil? Just because a coil's primary and secondary windings read good resistance (within specs) doesn't necessarily mean it's good. You can have flash over at high voltage (secondary windings) during operation, and that can't be detected when you just read out resistance through each set of coil windings. JerryJerry05 and, Nordin are pretty "thrifty" guys (notice I didn't say "cheapskates"), but they don't like to see people waste money replacing parts that may not have anything wrong with them unless a proper, logical troubleshooting sequence leads them to that. Follow their sage wisdom, it'll save you moolah in the end.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thank you Derrick, I'll certainly follow everyone's suggestions. As for the coil, the way I tested it was as you described- swapped around the coil - pack connections, but the misfire didn't follow the coil - always cylinder #3. More debugging to follow.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ferencg View Post
              Thank you for the responses, gives me some pointers to look into. They are the blue packs. I was trying to avoid having to rewire both packs, but I may end up having to. I did notice that pack #2 has one channel free (the one that would be used on a four-cylinder setup). I tried to connect coil #3 to that, to see if that might give spark, but no spark on that either. I wasn't sure if that would be because that's not activated in the stator (or somewhere else) on a 3-cylinder setup.

              Until I figure out the signature on iboats: I'm in Milton, NH. Boat is a 1989 Bayliner 16', motor is 90HP

              When you tried connecting #2 CDM spare circuit to #3 cylinder, did you also switch the trigger wires (connected the spare trigger wires in place of the original ones)? If not then it would not work.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Jiggz, No, that would have made sense if I had done so:-). Trying to figure out the electrical connections based on schematics - for example, http://www.outboardignition.com/support/116-8301.pdf - I have the "3-cylinder OEM Trigger and CDI stator" setup, bottom of page 3.
                What confuses me is the brown-yellow and brown-blue wires coming from the stator. Brown-blue for both #3 and #1 connect to brown-blue on pack 1 (why both? Assuming #3 is driving coil #3), and brown-yellow #4 is connected to module 2 (I suspect this one would be driving coil #4, so unused here?). I guess what I don't understand is the difference between brown-yellow and brown-blue coming from the stator, and why are both brown-blue wires connected to brown-blue on pack 1.
                How would I reconnect the stator wires to activate the fourth, blue-red output on the power pack?

                Comment


                • #9
                  The brown/blue and brown yellow wires from the stator makes no difference if CD#1 or CD#2 is connected to each set. In fact, the Brown/Blu is actually common to either brown yellow wires. If you'll notice the brown/blue wires are connected together at the terminal board. while the brown yellow goes on each of the CDM. And yes, either brown/yellow doesn't matter if connected to either CDM's.

                  The most important connection is the trigger wire connection. If you look at the wiring diagram, the wh/grn and wh/red of the #2 CDM are not connected. Hence, if you decide to use the spare circuit, then you should instead connect these two wires to the trigger wires to make it work.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    How many wires do you have coming out from the stator to the CD Modules, and what are the colors?

                    You have two stator windings. One winding (Brown/Blue & Brown/Yellow wires) for CD Module 1, and the other winding (Brown/Blue & Brown/Yellow wires) for CD Module 2. It's unfortunate that they color coded the stator wires in a manner that makes it difficult to differentiate which Brown/Blue wire is supposed top be paired with which Brown/Yellow wire. Maybe it doesn't make a difference, but I believe it does. If you measure between the Brown/Blue and Brown/Yellow wires (disconnected from the terminal strip) and read between 680-850 OHMs, then that is a matched pair. If you don't read between 680-850 OHMs between the Brown/Blue & Brown/Yellow wires, Try the other Brown/Yellow wire and see if you get the correct reading.

                    Once you determine which Brown/Blue and Brown/Yellow stator wires should be paired together, One set should go to the Brown/Blue & Brown/Yellow wires for CD Module 1, and the other pair should go to the Brown/Blue & Brown/Yellow wires for CD Module 2.



                    Comment


                    • #11
                      There are no spare wires on the 3 cyl. trigger.
                      ​#4 is just a plug hanging there.
                      ​The leads for #2 from the pack are hooked to dummy posts and do nothing.

                      ​IF??? you did get fire on #4 then the pack for sure would be bad.

                      ​Unhook the tach and see if that makes a difference?
                      ​Then unhook the voltage regulator?

                      Outboardignitiondotcom has test procedures.
                      But they have NO procedures for the pack.
                      They want you to test everything and if the other stuff tests OK then the only thing left is the pack.


                      Buy American made Cars and Trucks!!!Towing insurance for a boat,a GREAT thing.
                      ​Tools to make my life easier: Battery tester, die grinder, temp.gun, compression tester, DVA meter.

                      In Scenic , Beautiful San Sebastian by the sea Florida

                      88 Bayliner 21CC 2001 Mercury 225 HP EFI

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hello all, I performed additional diagnosis as time allows. Thank you very much for the help, it really doesn't seem to be the pack. And all the trigger resistances are good too.
                        As a reminder - 90 HP Force, 3 cylinders. The main symptom now is that I'm reading correct resistance between one pair of wires from the stator, but not on the other. Correct ~700 ohm between brown/blue 1 and brown/yellow 2. No connection between #3 and #4. It doesn't seem to be the wire connections, I removed the heat shrinks and tested that way. If I switched around the stator connections, then cylinder #2 and #3 started firing correctly, so the issue moved to cylinder #1 in that case. I disconnected the rectifier too, that didn't resolve the issue.
                        I don't suppose I could safely short-circuit the stator wires? In other words, use brown/yellow #2 for both modules, where brown/yellow #4 goes, use brown/yellow #2? Brown/blue #2 and #3 already both connect to module #1/#2.
                        I'm also trying to now get a wrench for the fly-wheel. I was hoping I could avoid messing with that, but I can't see much from the stator with the fly-wheel on.

                        Ferenc

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          From your post it sounds like one of the power wire connection from the stator to the packs is not working. Or that there is an open connection (no resistance or infinity). The next step now is to open and inspect the stator by removing the flywheel.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks Jiggz, working on that next. I have already ordered a flywheel puller, that was not coming off easily.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Sign up today
                              Thank you for the assistance, I now see that (at least) the stator is broken. It clearly has a burned spot - the plastic burned to coal. I found some -what looks like - a piece of the insulation foam in that area, not sure if that could have contributed to the burning process. I did read that most people removed the engine insulation foam, but it was still on when I got this motor.
                              My main question is if there might be anything other than 30 years of use that could lead to the stator burning? I'm trying to see if there might be anything else that might need to be investigated before installing a new stator.
                              Now onto finding an affordable stator for a 1990 90 HP.

                              Comment

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