125 HP cranks fine without plugs

pantaloonz

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
237
Hi,

1986 Bayliner Capri: 125 HP Force Engine 1254X6B

Starting after a 5 yr nap.

Disconnected the fuel line and disconnected most of the electrical; horns/bilge anciallary items etc...

Removed all the plugs and squirted a bit of WD in all 4 cylinders.
Tried the key, CLICK... nothing. - I had to disconnect from the battery and reconnect to try again (almost like a blown fuse or something)

CLICK again.. ok something screwy...

Jumped over the solenoid and went straight to the starter. The starter cranked the flywheel just fine.

However, putting the spark plugs in and it will not perform the job. It will crank maybe 1/10th of a turn. Then stop.

For Hypothetical reasons I would like to ASSUME the starter is fine because...

I took the starter off, dissambled, checked the brushes, all good. the magnet is still nice and strong. Running the starter on my work best and it rotates just as it should.

Attaching back to the outboard it cranks just as should (without plugs)

Put the plugs back in and NO GO.

Tried with TWO brand new marine batteries. So it's Not a dead battery

I don't have a pull rope, but I don't have gas line connected anyway I'm just starting with square one and trying to get the flywheel to spin with the plugs in.

I assume the solenoid is bad since it won't move the starter even with the plugs out :)

Please I'd be interested to know in those who figured out something NOT electrical or starter based that caused them this issue.

I read through one article where the gentlemen used a healthy dose of penetrating oil..

Suggestions?

-Pantz
 

jerryjerry05

Supreme Mariner
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
17,923
Use starting battery's.
A weak starter will turn over a motor with no plugs.
Do a compression test. Pull all the plugs to do the test.
Comp OK?
Then remove the lower unit and try again.
​Sometimes the bearings lock up and make it hard to turn.

The starters easy to clean.

​The solenoid: test light someone at the key.Turn key.
​Test light at the yellow/red lead on the solenoid.
​If it lights up and the ground wire on the solenoid is hooked up.Then the solenoids bad.
​If it doesn't light up?? then the switch is bad.
 

SkiDad

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jul 18, 2010
Messages
1,518
That happened to my dads boat. I put a new starter in and it was fine again.
 

Jiggz

Captain
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
3,817
Starting with the easy ones first.
1. Disconnect the black negative wire from the engine block, clean it shiny and also the mating surface on the block. Use some dielectric grease and apply a thin coat on both mating surfaces. Try again.

2. As for the solenoid, after 5 year nap, there's a good possibility the main contacts are full of grime or verde green. A replacement is in order unless you are willing to disassemble it and refurbish the contacts.
 

pantaloonz

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
237
All,

Thanks for the responses; I made the decision to attack this thing head on. I ordered a new starter, solenoid, trim motor, and full water pump kit
The lower unit is the first to come off since those parts will be here first.

I'm being very optimistic that that new starter will crank this thing, and I want the other parts on hand to keep the project moving forward!

I will clean the grounds and electrical connections as best I can as well. The connections are not 'green' but they need to be cleaned.

I will keep you all posted.

order of business
1. Compression Test
2. Drop lower and replace install water pump kit (pump, impeller etc) disconnect and clean up prop components.
3. Replace Starter and Solenoid
4. Replace and reconnect trim motor

Thanks again.
-Pantz
 

pantaloonz

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
237
Hi all,

I removed the lower unit this weekend. I wasnt' particularly difficult thanks to an awesome sticky by Frank.

The lower unit did not come off easily though, it needed considerable persuasion, but it did come off.

I was surprised to learn that the gear (f-n-r) rod is held together with such a simple mechanism
The flywheel is moving eaiser with very little force; no the unit was not in gear it was definately in neutral.
Still pending a compression test, and Yes Jerry I agree with you I'm very possibly running a risk of having new parts for an engine that's not gonna pass this test.

I'm not sure this unit was ever taken apart before, the components look to be original (which I think is pretty cool)
The impeller was actually in very good shape, but the shaft was fairly dirty and needed some very heavy scotch brite pad work
The prop nut, spline washer(spacer) and plain washer will need to be replaced.
The pump and impeller did not come off nicely until the shaft was cleaned.
I did NOT lose the Drive key. (thank you again Frank, wherever you are)

So things are moving along well, I cleaned the powerhead up too, scraped out the old cowling, removed and power cleaned the exhaust cover and performed various other clean up activites.

Compression test SOMETIME this week.

cleaned_parts.jpg parts_laid.jpg

Thanks for everyone's input, thus far.

-Pantz
 

titaniumneck

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
209
I purchased a 2007 25 hp yamaha 4 stroke from a young man for $200, he believed he had burned up the motor because it was "locked up". He actually melted the battery wire plastic off the starter battery trying to force it to turn over. Like the other gentleman said, and I knew when I looked at the motor it wasn't locked up. Bought it brought it home, dropped lower unit, motor started just fine, lower unit drive shaft bearing was bad. Replaced bearing cleaned it all up, sold it for $1800.
Also when you put the plugs back into motor the starter has a much heavier load to push with all the cylinders compression. Other gentleman was right might be weak starter. But make sure every electrical connection from the battery all the way to the starter are all nice and shiny with sandpaper and wire brush.
 

pantaloonz

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
237
Thank you for responding Titaniumneck,

how would I know if the drive shaft bearing has failed? - With the lower unit off, and manual using the shift rod to place into forward or reverse, I seem to be getting a very smooth turn at the prop. If the bearing was bad would this occur?

I also got this boat very inexpensively, and the only reason I invested in it was due to how well the electrical wiring has held up on the powerhead. I was shocked to find it in such great condition. I guess mice prefer foam and acorns and not plastic wire sheathing. - Regardless I will be cleaning off those connection, but I'm going to do that VERY slowly and carefully since it would be very easy to get some thing wired back wrong.

-Pantz
 

mla2ofus

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 30, 2008
Messages
571
Did you put some grease in the front and rear bushings of the starter while you had it apart? Had a 90HP force do exactly what yours is doing. I greased the bushings and it cranked well for the next 9 years until I sold it. Try it on your old starter just to see if it will help.
Mike
 

pantaloonz

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
237
Hi Mla2ofus and all,

First things first: Compression test results: 1, 3, and 4 cylinders right at 130psi. 2 was just around 128ish.. I think that's very positive.

I had not tried the grease on the bushings. That sounds interesting.

All my parts are nearly in.

Trim and Vavle Body
Water Pump kit (pump, seals, impeller)
Starter and Solenoid are ready for installation.
I had to grab a spline washer for the prop; it was pretty tired. Hard part to find for sure!

I have many.....many connectors to clean but it'll be worth it to ensure clean power.

-Pantz
 

jerryjerry05

Supreme Mariner
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
17,923
Try turning the drive shaft with the pump off.
Vice grips on the shaft, should turn fairly easy in N.
In gear a bit harder?

​You drain the oil?
​Make sure you drain from the right spot.
The slotted screw is NOT a drain.
​The drain's on the bottom.
Allen head set screw.

​Check for water, metal, rust?
 

pantaloonz

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
237
Hi JJ05,

Thanks for answering, and let me respond, just in reverse order

I'm pretty sure I drained the lower unit completely.
I read up on the lower unit as much as I could and knew not to touch the slotted screw. The drain plug on the bottom of the nose was a little hex head screw as the documenation indicated it would be.
When I removed that, only a small bead of gear oil drizzled out.
It wasn't until I removed the fill and vent plugs did a get good "pour"

For the first 5-10 seconds it was tan'ish ; somewhat tranlucent with brown fluid specs
After 10 seconds the consistency became oil like; like when I change my riding mower oil; thicker and full on brown to black
The final drainage was deep black and thick.

I suspended the unit between two sawhorses and really let it drain, but I still get a little bit of black fluid as I continue to work on it. I have squashed it around my fingers and such and I'm not seeing rust or metal particles.

Is there some way to safely FLUSH the unit? I'd really like to get as much gunk out as possible.

I filled a basin with PB blaster fluid and I'm going to dip the unit in that for a while.... (just kidding seeing how much people read this)

Ok so on to the other question (your first one)

I have not moved the the gears a lot because I'm paranoid without lube in there I'm damaging the parts. Pump is off.

I can move the shaft very easily when in neutral, no vice grips necessary at all; I can move easily free hand.
I can also move the prop shaft by hand with only slighlty more force on the drive shaft when in forward, or reverse.
If I put my ears on the unit (yes that's a funny picture) I can hear the gearing inside (I don't know why I like that sound but I do). It doesnt sound "grindy" or abrasive at all sounds very smooth; like a nicely oiled bike chain on 10speed.

Last night I cleaned off the prop shaft (looks so much better now)
Did some more polishing of the drive shaft; though I can't seem to get rid of the tiny black line where the top of the pump sat..
I wire brushed the exposed cavities (minor pitting) and wire brused the entire perimeter where the lower unit meets the upper for a cleaner join.

Valve body just arrived at work, now I can put the trim back on :). will be awesome to be able to move the engine again!
Now just waiting on Pump replacement kit.

-Pantz
 

jerryjerry05

Supreme Mariner
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
17,923
Be very careful when reinstalling the pump.
​The shaft from the motor needs to go in the groove and if it's off 1/8th of a turn??
It can ruin the pump.
After installing the pump, do the leakdown test.
Some of these "new" pumps aren't worth the postage to send them back??

​The gear oil sounds like it has water??
​The drain plug(not a good design) weeps a bit of water.
​Do a pressure test and make sure it's not a seal somewhere.

​The brownish oil followed by the black stuff sounds like water in the drain plug area.
 

pantaloonz

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
237
Good morning,

Just a quick update. Tuesday evening I completed the installation of the valve body, trim reservoir, (that was a huge pain) starter, starter solenoid, and water pump.. *long night*

I'm pleased to say that last night I had great cranking of the flywheel with all four plugs in place!! Yay!

I also discovered that the starter solenoid was not bad. I have not identified the exact cause but I have narrowed it down to an electrical problem in the circuit board under the helm. When I remove the positive lead from the circuit board to the battery the engine will crank from the key. I've tabled that particular diagnostic for another time.

I also had to break in the steering as it had sat...
so with a good dose of penetrating oil and working the connection the steering now functions correctly as well

I picked up a 6 gallon outboard tank with new fuel connectors as the one that came with the boat is heavily deteriorated.

I'm quite pleased with the progress so far and the next step is to put the lower unit back on.

-pantz
 

jerryjerry05

Supreme Mariner
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
17,923
There "might" be a fuse under the dash that needs replaced or the connections cleaned.
 

pantaloonz

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
237
Hi Jerry,

The panel under the helm has several in line fuses, on a visual inspection they all seem to be "whole", But I do remmeber on my four wins I had to actually buy a new board because the grounding plate was corroded beyond repair.

I believe the issue is the inline fuse that has been manually integrated into the positive feed from the circuit board. Over time this line has been cut into several times to attach power to to various parts and locations around the boat... I assume they had a radio, fish finder, or other parts that needed power so they generously cut into, spliced and respliced this line multiple times, and in the course of all that integrated a 12 AMP fuse (plug type) into the mix.

I don't "need" the lights, fuel gage, and bilge right now. But obviously I'm gonna need to sort that out at some point, definitely before splash down. I got derailed last night so no furhter work was done. Hoping to get the lower unit in, new fuel assembly and actually try to start it on muffs. Should be fun.

-Pantz
 

pantaloonz

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
237
Happy 4th to all Iboaters!!

Once again, I'm going to start off with a thanks for everyone's input. I do have a significant update hopefully I won't bore everyone!

As previously stated I did complete a lot of the components installations. A couple days ago I tried getting the lower unit on. I was having a very hard time doing it. I was not able to get the splines in proper position I guess, also the water pump needs to be perfectly in line too. I was ready to give up when I tried installing it from a bench press position, and suddenly without warning, BOOM, it slid in. Thankfully my son was right there with a bolt. I did use marine grade spline grease on the shaft splines. I cranked the engine just to be sure all was still well and it was so I stopped there. Quick note here: I brought the battery into the garage to keep it on the charger

Sunday:

I made sure the lower unit was secure, then reattached the upper exhaust cowling (whatever that's called), reinstalled the prop with some good grease and new spacer, washers, and prop nut. That was a nice feeling to see that Force Engine fully together, with a nice bright white sheen on her (except where I smudged it with grease of course).

Yesterday:

I filled the new hydraulic tilt, there wasn't much instruction to go on as far as how full it should be, but the system was drained, and where the fill hole is, it can only hold a fairly small amount before it will leak out, so I filled it just under that point. -- any comments here? -- I've yet to use the tilt as I need to patch it into the electrical wiring, which (more later) is a bit of concern.

I then filled the lower unit with gear oil. Using the same mechanism that I use on my 4 winns, this outboard seemed to use a LOT less oil and the filling process is more straightforward. I attached the hand pump to the fill and kept the vent screw out. I pumped oil in until the gear oil began coming out the vent. I quickly capped the vent hole. When I removed the pump from the fill hole however, no gear oil seeped out. It took almost a full quart. I'm having some trouble finding out what the capacity of gear oil should truly be. I'd say it has 30oz in it right now. COMMENTS?

Next item was to connect a new 6gal tank. I was very pleased the line that I purchased said it was for Force engines, and it did fit perfectly. I took that opportunity to remove the line from the fuel filter and give that a look over. The filter was a bit old school, just a small cylindrical filter with a old style faucet screen on it and a basic gasket. (I love the old style stuff) Anyway it was clean and gooky free so I reattached.

Next was a carb cleaning. I removed both bowls. The top bowl popped off easily. The bottom needed more coaxing; light taps to free it. Both of them had considerable residue; oily icky stuff. I dropped them in a bowl and laced them with Carb Cleander and got the bowls, washers, and screws all cleaned up and looking new. Reattaching them was simple.

Well I figured now or never to see really what the engine was gonna do. I brought the battery back in and hand tightened the basic electrical. No helm circuit yet because I was not sure if that was problematic. Probably a few of you are saying: it's not going to turn over without the helm circuit board, and you are right!! But I'll get to that in a second. I cranked the engine a whole bunch and noticed I was leaking fuel from the bottom carb bowl! ... I left it too loose.

But it would not turn over at all, just cranked. I did some quick checking and my problem was indeed not connecting the helm circuit board. But when I connected it, I was back to the problem of not getting a good clean turn of the starter.

so what was happening? --- Well I found that one of the ground leads to the circuit board ground is just plain LOUSY. It's a tiny ring with very little room to make good contact, when I was hand tightening the connections to the battery the connection was NOT sufficient. ALSO, I did read on this forums that if the kill switch circuit is not attached there will be NO spark to the plugs. --D'OH!-- this is kind of important! So I cleaned the leads off even more and tightend down all the connections on the battery with a wrench.. that did it!.

I can't get it to catch and stay started, but I didnt try it for too much longer because I didnt have the hose on. I don't know if I need to give it some throttle at the stick (out of gear of course) or if it should eventually catch and idle for me? -- I'll get the hose on it today and see if I can't get her to start!

-- Key learnings:

-- Electrical connections must be clean, and TIGHT to the terminals especially if they are scrawny.
-- Penetrating oil on the throttle stick helps get the "pull neutral to work well"
-- Penetrating oil is also good on the steering mechanism that has been sitting.
-- Make sure to grease your splines
-- Lower units like to go in when you least expect them
-- Without your kill switch key working, the engine won't start from the helm
-- Force parts are getting VERY hard to find
-- Carb bowls are actually easy to clean, but make sure they are tight going back in
-- A good beer improves any engine project.

Today: I will attemp to start on the muffs. --- Unless of course I run into other problems :)

-Pantz
 

pantaloonz

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
237
hi!

Sorry to respond to my own post, but just a fast update.

After some manual intervention on the throttle and choke levers I did get it to start!!

It was very difficult at the start, cut out a lot and was blowing smoke. After a few minutes of warming everything up at a medium throttle I was able to get it to idle.

I even cut it out and restarted it and it held.

Now at a little bit of throttle it does seem to skip a little, and even at idle every now and then it's skipping.. however this is the first run it's had in 5 years, I don't expect a purring kitten.

I did engage forward and reverse and got good prop spin. Throttle is still quite stiff.

I will think about taking it to a local shop for a decent tune up -- I think the carbs need to be adjusted a bit and I'm not confident in that procdure.

I'm pretty happy right now, can't do anything more today as we're taking my other finished project on the lake!

THANK YOU ALL!

-Pantz
 
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