90hp Force water in bottom cylinder

72k5mike

Cadet
Joined
Apr 30, 2017
Messages
15
Hey all,

Before I get to the issue, I will give you a little history of the motor. I bought a boat for a steal with a blown 1995 90hp. The previous owner had the head pulled already and you could see that the bottom piston had a nick in it where a ring got caught on a port. The pistons moved freely in the cylinders and came apart easily. All bearings were in tact and looked like they were in good shape. I rebuilt the powerhead this past winter; 0.010" over pistons, all new powerhead gaskets, all new bearings, rebuilt carbs, rebuilt fuel pump, new thermostat and new impeller. The motor went back together smooth, started and idled great. The first time I took it out for break-in, it got hot enough to trip the temp alarm and I shut it down right away. I found that I had a misfire on the first cylinder which I suspect wasn't letting the thermostat get hot enough to open. I traced that back to a bad coil pack and changed all 3. The temperature on all 3 cylinders now seems very close to each other and the thermostat opens as it should.

I then found that I have water in the 3rd cylinder from somewhere. I am getting a frothy/milky mess on that spark plug. A normal shut down from idle is not as bad as when I shut down from higher speeds (all of this testing is running the engine in a drum with water). My original exhaust plate was pretty warped and after some searching here, I decided to change that and the two gaskets again. After this did not fix the problem, I changed the head gasket with no change. While the head was off, I pressurized the head with some air and put a soapy solution on the combustion side of the head and noticed no leaks.

Today I took the reed valves out to inspect and everything looks good. I even swapped #2 and #3 reed valves as a check and it did not change anything. When the reeds were out I could see some of that frothy/milky oil on the reed for #3 and along the bottom of the block surrounding the lower bearing. I am not really sure where else to check. My last thought is to pull the powerhead again and check the base gasket.

One thing to note is that my rebuild kit did not come with gasket to go between the powerhead adapter and the motor leg. I used permatex ultra black on all mating surfaces. Do you think I could be getting water in the exhaust port from this sealing surface? Is there any way to check for a crack in the block without taking it apart and sending the block for magnafluxing? I did not see anything obvious throughout all of this and I looked pretty close.

I appreciate any help you guys can give!

Mike
 

Nordin

Commander
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
2,438
The issue can be the bottom crankseal. As the drivshaft rotate water will follow the shaft up and into the crank case.

I have had this issue at a couple of smaller Chrysler engines. These were 2 cylinder engines and I noted no fire at bottom cylinder and the engines did not run proper.
As your 90Hp is a 3 cyliner engine and it can idle and run with 2 cylinders runing proper, it can be more difficult to note its performance.

I would suggest to pull the powerhead and check the gaskets and seals at the lower part of the block.
 

jerryjerry05

Supreme Mariner
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May 7, 2008
Messages
17,927
You do a compression test after the assy?
​If it got that hot the new head gasket could be leaking???

​Straight edge? or a big piece of glass.
​Test the head to see if it's warped.

​The reeds and front of the motor doesn't have water flowing there.
The water circulates only towards the back of the motor.

How much RTV did you use on the adaptor plate?
​To much can block the flow.
 

pnwboat

Rear Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
4,251
Looks like you've covered all of the "usual" sources for water leaks in the lower cylinder. Now it's time to start looking for the more "unusual" source for water leaks. Both Nordin and Jerry have pointed out some good things. I would also add that the exhaust cover plate has some sealing surfaces that are pretty thin and are easily corroded away. There are a couple of different styles of exhaust cover gaskets. Make sure you're using the right one.
 

72k5mike

Cadet
Joined
Apr 30, 2017
Messages
15
I appreciate everyone's replies! I will pull the powerhead to see what is going on under there. I am in the process of ordering new gaskets while I am in there. I am not recalling 100%, but I am not sure if my powerhead adapter had the seal installed as shown in #4 below. This motor has been tricky getting parts for as the serial number on the leg is missing. The powerhead has bottom guided connecting rods which should indicate 1994 year, but the "leg" seems to be Mercury which seems to point to 1995. Gasket #13 is the one that I was missing; I tried to put enough silicone on to make sure I covered all surfaces, but not too much. I would really prefer the gasket over silicone, so I will go that route.

When I had the head off, I checked it on a piece of glass and I couldn't fit a piece of paper in anywhere. The head gasket was replaced after the overheat episode.

I think I have the right exhaust gaskets, as everything seemed to match up pretty well.

Do you guys have any suggestions for a dye or something to run through before I pull the powerhead to hopefully see any water leakage?





-I couldn't paste the diagram, but here is a link

http://www.**********/parts/search/Merc/Force/1995/H090412RD/ADAPTER PLATE - UPPER/parts.html
 

jerryjerry05

Supreme Mariner
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May 7, 2008
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17,927
This site won't let you put a competing company's stuff here.
​The difference between the 94 and 95 is like day and night.
The 94 didn't have a gasket under the adaptor plate the 95 does.
The adaptor plate is WAY different too.

​I bring up the parts diagrams in 2 different windows and that way I can compare the 2 models.

​You cant post pics until you have 5 posts, when you do add some pics of the adaptor plate.

 

72k5mike

Cadet
Joined
Apr 30, 2017
Messages
15
Thanks for the insight Jerry. I have ordered gaskets and a seal and hope to dive into this this weekend.

On a side note, have you guys had any experience with these blocks cracking? I'm hoping that since there appeared to be no major damage and everything came apart easy I should in the clear
 

pnwboat

Rear Admiral
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Oct 8, 2007
Messages
4,251
I experience a similar issue like yours several years ago with a 1988 125HP motor. Good running motor but water kept getting into number 1 cylinder. Spark plug had water droplets on it after running. Had the head and block milled .010" to make sure the mating surfaces were flat. Replaced the exhaust cover gaskets and the stainless steel baffle between the cover and block. Replaced the head gasket. Put a different head on it with new head gasket. Nothing stopped the leak. Found a used block and switched all the parts over to it. That fixed the problem. I still have that old block sitting in my shop and I cannot find any evidence of a crack or any problem with it.
 

jerryjerry05

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May 7, 2008
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17,927
I've never seen a cracked block on a Force.
But have on a 50hp Mercury.
IF?? you live in a freeze zone there's always the possibility for water being trapped in the motor and the block cracking??
​But outboards are usually self draining.
​On the Merc the affected cyl. would foul with fuel after a short time.
Took FOREVER to figure that one out.
 

gregmsr

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
391
I bought my 125 11 years ago without noticing someone had patched the block with LB Weld.
It seeped a little on the outside but no other issues.
Then, I started noticing water droplets on bottom cylinder plug. And the crack had migrated outside the weld.
I did the usual repairs without success. Then had another power head built.

I always assumed the crack had spread to the inside of the water jacket but I never found where.
 

72k5mike

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Apr 30, 2017
Messages
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I stripped the powerhead off tonight and took apart the powerhead adapter. I found some residue in the water inlet side but I'm not sure if it's oil mixed with the water or gasket sealant. When i rebuilt everything I used OMC gasket sealant on all of the water side gaskets. I also found some pitting between the water inlet and exhaust exit. I'm probably grasping at straws but maybe it's leaking in here. If it is, it would be spraying directly at the exhaust ports of the 3rd cylinder

Do you guys recommend using gasket sealant on these surfaces? The first time I used WSM gaskets but this time I have quicksilver

I was even thinking of the Indian head shallac from permatex as I've had good experience in the past with a truck thermostat but I don't know if it's good for marine use.
 

jerryjerry05

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Not sure about the Indian Head.
​I know it's good for sealing carbs and such?
I use RTV.
 

Nordin

Commander
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Jun 12, 2010
Messages
2,438
I do not either know anything about Indian Head.
I use Permatex Form a Gasket Aviation no 3.
The can with a built in brush in the cap works perfect and the seal liquid to.
 

72k5mike

Cadet
Joined
Apr 30, 2017
Messages
15
I wanted to give you guys an update. I replaced the two powerhead adapter gaskets with fresh quicksilver ones, and I applied the Indian head shellac to all mating surfaces. I hate to speak too soon but the water in the 3rd cylinder seems to have cleared up when running in the drum. Even after a high speed shutdown there does not seem to be anything. An interesting note is that the tell-tale seems to be flowing much better than before. Maybe the lower gasket I made from rtv originally blocked or redirected the water some how.

My engine temps seem to be staying relatively cold now as well. Before this my cylinder head temps stayed around 130-135 with a laser thermometer. Now they are around 90 or so

It's tough to know what this thing should run like since it was blown when I got it, but it seems to be running better now
 
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