Firing multiple times on one cylinder

[pnwboat]

You're right about the wasted spark ignition. That's only applicable on systems where they fire two cylinders with a single coil. Scratch that idea.

Anyways, check the reeds.

Also double check the fuel enrichment solenoid if you have that instead of a mechanical choke. Sometimes the enrichment valve will stick open and keep dumping fuel into the intake. It should have a black button on the top that you can push to manually open the valve. A couple of pushes and a couple shots of carb cleaner may fix it if it's a problem.

If that all checks out, then take a look at the stator voltages and all wires (stator and trigger) going to the Switch Box.

 

[FWDan]

I checked compression this evening. Here are the psi readings:

Cylinder	Test 1	Test2	Test 3 w/ WD-40	1-3 Incr	2-3 Incr
1	132	130	138	6	8
2	142	140	150	8	10
3	135	137	143	8	6

Note: Spraying WD-40 in the cylinders before test 3 increased the pressure by 6 to 10 psi as shown.
I?m just not sure how to interpret the results. Ideas?

I ordered components to build a DVA so I can test trigger and stator voltages. I also plan to inspect the reeds and enrichment valve next.

 

[tommarvin]

You could take the flywheel off and look for a problem.
Check every inch of wire, pull every wire very hard that goes into a connector?
Are the magnets ok on the flywheel?
I've never heard of firing multiple times on one flywheel turn but I'm new here, are you sure you have it diagnosed correctly, how do you know its firing multiple times for sure?

 

[FWDan]

I know it's firing multiple times by timing light. My motor has the same issue as shown in this video, except my motor has 3 cylinders.

 

[jerryjerry05]

If the comp goes up after adding oil: it means the reeds might have a build up and seizing to the piston.
​Or you just have a lower comp on that cylinder.
You can remove the transfer port cover and inspect the rings if needed.
You remove all plugs when testing?
#1@2 test are right inline. #3is about right after adding oil.

Just what was it doing that you started working on it?
I must have missed it.

 

[FWDan]

My original question was posted when I found the cylinders firing multiple times per revolution as described above.

Let me share what happened to get me to that point. Motor would not start this spring after winter. It actually did start, but ran very rough and would not idle. I suspected water in fuel since I use 10% ethanol fuel and did not add stabilizer last fall. (Note to self, add stabilizer to fuel.) We were at the lake camping for the week with the kids, so I really wanted to get it running. I put one bottle of gas treatment in the 18-20 gallon tank and replaced inline fuel filter and plugs. I opened up the bowl an saw some fine particles in the bottom. I was able to get it running well enough for our camping trip, but it still did not run great and would not idle in neutral. I had to use the fast idle feature. It was hard to get into gear without motor stalling.

Once home I took the carburetor off and apart and cleaned with spray carburetor cleaner through all the ports and jets. I replaced fuel lines from pump to carb, including the enrichment valve lines. I also did a link and sync as described in Frank's video. Set the timing to 28 degrees BTDC. Set air bleed screw to 1-1/2 turn. Reset the idle speed in neutral, while on the water hose, to about 1000 rpm.

When I took it to the lake, it would not idle very well in gear. It would bog down at the beginning of a hole shot and then would not run past 4000 rpms at WOT. Last summer I would get 5000 rpms. At WOT it would miss or bog down. As I pulled the throttle back from WOT, it would smooth out around 3000 rpms. Adjusting the air bleed screw in 1/8 in increments did not seem to change things much. 1-1/2 turns out seems to be the best. It still has the bog down issue at start of hole shot and at WOT.

I've rechecked the static timing which is at 28 degrees BTDC. But I noticed multiple numbers show up on top of the flywheel when I shine the timing light on it. Just like the video I attached above. The trigger and stator resistances are to spec or off just a little as stated above. Checked compression last night and posted numbers. Yes, all plugs removed for the test.

What do you think?

 

[tommarvin]

I think your right it's the trigger.
cdielectronics.com wwwoutboardignition.com explain how to test a trigger. Don't throw $ at a new trigger unless it tests bad.
No ignition part is going to help if a wire is grounded out in the trigger,stator, coils, cdi packs first, and all grounds are clean and tight.

 

[fmt2bx]

My original question was posted when I found the cylinders firing multiple times per revolution as described above.

........hich is at 28 degrees BTDC. But I noticed multiple numbers show up on top of the flywheel when I shine the timing light on it. Just like the video I attached above. The trigger and stator resistances are to spec or off just a little as stated above. Checked compression last night and posted numbers. Yes, all plugs removed for the test.

What do you think?

It's hard to say and you've done quite a bit already. The thing I know is that checking the resistance of the components is necessary but only half of the story, unfortunately. If you could check the DVA too that would give you the full specs.
Inspecting the inside of the flywheel might also be appropriate. Not fun to remove tho. But if you end up having to change the trigger you'll have to take the flywheel off anyway.

I have done the test as described in the video just to see what I would get. My motor (1986 125HP) is working fine at the moment and I got a good test. Meaning that the timing light shows only the number of the cylinder tested on the flywheel. However, I am not convinced that the trigger is the only component which could create your issue.

At this stage, I'd say finish testing the electronics and go from there.

Cheers

Fmt

 

[pnwboat]

The trigger assy. on your motor is pretty simple. Each individual trigger is a simple coil of wire, placed 120? apart inside the circular trigger assy. As the trigger magnet, which is mounted around the center hole of the flywheel, passes by the coil, it induces a voltage (I think it's about a .5 volt pulse) into the trigger coil which is then passed on to the Switch Box. The electronic circuitry in the Switch Box utilizes this pulse to fire the coils. If the ignition system is firing multiple times per revolution, then either the trigger coils are moving around, or the magnet which is spinning, is loose and triggering multiple coils at once. I would expect that you would see very erratic ignition spark if this were the case. It seems that your ignition system is pretty stable, just firing more than 1 plug at once. Also if either the trigger magnet or trigger assy. itself were loose, I'd expect you to see or hear see some evidence of parts hitting each other etc. All of these parts are mounted very close together, so if anything is loose, you'll know something is wrong.

I wouldn't consider myself an expert, but I can say that the failure rate for the trigger assy. is very low. When you find a bad trigger assy, it's usually because one of the wires going to the trigger assy has been rubbing against the block or flywheel, or the wire has broken at the spade lug connector. The resistance readings on your trigger assy. are normal, so I appears that it's probably OK.

I've seen many more Switch Boxes fail, than trigger assemblies. It may be that some component in the electronic circuitry inside the Switch Box has failed and is triggering spark on multiple coils at once. From what you're describing, I would "guess" that the Switch Box would most likely be the culprit.

I don't know of any way to test the Switch Box with a meter. Not sure if this is a valid test, but you might be able to test by doing the following. Disconnect the trigger wires at the Switch Box for cylinder #2 and #3 and tape them up. Put your timing light on #1 spark plug wire and crank the motor over. If you are still seeing #2 and #3 cylinders fire, then it has to be the Switch Box, since the trigger voltage input from the trigger itself for #2 and #3 cylinders has been disconnected.

 

[tommarvin]

cdielectronics.com www outboardignition.com
These two places explain how to test a switch box.

 

[FWDan]

No Title

[FONT=&quot]I received my diode, capacitor and resistor today in the mail and built a DVA. Testing a 120V outlet with the DVA gave a peak voltage of 170V, so I think it is working properly. With the DVA, I performed the tests from CDI Electronics. I was not sure if the readings were supposed to be with engine running or just cranking, so I took measurements both ways were it made sense. Some of the results were good and as expected, others were a little strange. See attached photos of results.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]​[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The red stator wire connected with engine running was very high and putting my volt meter over the 1000 vdc range. What does that mean?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I tried it connected while cranking the engine and the switchbox kill wire open and volts fell within range on both blue and red wire.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I tried it connected while cranking the engine and the switchbox kill wire grounded and volts were very low on both blue and red wires. Does that make sense?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When I tried the unconnected stator wire tests while cranking and kill wire open the blue and red wires checked okay.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Note the Trigger tests with connected wires, engine running. The numbers were pegging the meter on 1000VDC range. How could the trigger generate that much voltage? When I disconnected the wires and tested, they look okay. That tells me the switchbox must be sending a voltage down the trigger wires. Or is it the stator causing the problem?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I check the DVA voltage coming from the switchbox to the coil primary. Those voltages seem way high also. Which component is causing that? This high voltage may be causing the extra sparks I'm seeing on all my cylinders. I'm thinking switchbox problem, but I'm not sure.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Finally, I pulled the carburetor off to check the reeds and found one reed broken completely off. See attached photo. Would this be causing my poor idle, missing and low rpms at WOT?[/FONT]

 

[Nordin]

Fix the bad reed pedal first before you start to change components at the ignition system.
The broken reed will definitely causing bad idle, missing and even low WOT.

I will go through you readings from the test of the ign.system later today.
Am in a hurry right now and I will check with the troubleshoot chart from CDI when I have little more time tonight.

 

[fmt2bx]

I am looking at your results and it seems that all the values (stator and trigger) are within range with Kill wire open. Do you agree?

 

[fmt2bx]

I read something about testing with kill wire open, I'll have to research some more but I think that if test is good with kill open then the diode on pack is bad. Hopefully someone here can find the source of your issue. have you tested the rectifier too?

 

[pnwboat]

Like Nordin suggested....first replace the broken reed. See how the motor runs. Basically your motor is running on 2 cylinders.

Any readings you take with the Kill wire grounded are invalid because this disables the Switch Box. This is how the motor is stopped when you turn the ignition key to the "OFF" position. It grounds the Kill wire.

 

[FWDan]

I am looking at your results and it seems that all the values (stator and trigger) are within range with Kill wire open. Do you agree?

[FONT=&quot]I don't totally agree. Look at the red stator wire voltage with engine running. It was crazy high. Also the trigger wires with engine running were way higher than they should be. Yes, I agree the values look good when cranking the engine (not running), but what do those high running values mean? Are the tests designed for cranking only?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The only rectifier test I did was check charging voltage with engine running. I got 13.08 V which is within spec.[/FONT]

 

[FWDan]

I'll get the reeds and gaskets on order. Any advice on what to buy? And what shall I do about the piece of reed that is down in the crankcase somewhere? I've looked around but cannot see it?

​Thanks everyone for staying with me on this one and providing the good advice. My hope in the end is that someone else will benefit from my experience, and I have a good running motor.

 

[pnwboat]

If it's in the motor, it's most likely in the By-Pass passage for what ever cylinder it feeds. Looks like it's for #2 cylinder. You can take the By-Pass cover off of #2 cylinder and see if you can find it. If no reed there, most likely was spit out with the exhaust.

I've serviced many outboards with broken reeds. I've never been able to find a piece of reed petal in the motor. I've heard other more experienced mechanics say that a piece of metal reed broke off and damaged a cylinder, but never seen it myself.

Compression looks fine so If you cannot find it, I'm not sure I would worry about it.

 

[FWDan]

I am having trouble finding stock metal reeds. I see composite reeds from CCMS and Boyesen reeds. I see whole reed block assemblies on ebay. What about replacing just the reeds as a set for my 1995 Force 70 hp OE118705? Are they available somewhere?

 

[Nordin]

Try Franz Marine he will have stock if they are available.
He maybe sales only the pedal.

Looks like they sales as an assembly.
Have looked at Mercusierparts and Crowley marine and both only has the hole assembly #855952T3.