hard start can it be mechanical?

[fisheymikey]

hello,

force 125 1988
battery full charge 1000 cranking amps. wires changed and properly connected.just openned the starter cleaned brushes and armature look good.
even put in starting procedure with in neutral forward advanced throttle.

the reason of my question of "can it be mechanical" is because i tried the other day just for kicks to start the engine with pull cord. it was impossible to turn over. i have done it the past and it turned easier than my lawnmower.

my question is can it be a mechanical. can something be lagging or stiff... any ideas?

thanks

mike

 

[HotTommy]

If it were mine, I'd pull the spark plugs and try again. If it was still hard to turn, I'd remove the head and take a look.

 

[pnwboat]

If something in the lower unit was going bad, it may affect the amount of effort needed to turn the motor over. Only way to test is to drop the lower unit and see if it makes a difference.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Pull the plugs and see if that helps?
If it turns over then? do​ a compression test.
No then.
Drop the lower and see if it helps.

Sometimes the bearing on the drive shaft seizes and wont allow it to turn.

 

[fisheymikey]

here is the starter acting weird. its like spinning freely?

the gear is locked up but the shaft spins.

any ideas?

 

[pnwboat]

Looks like the bendex is bad. You can replace the bendex gear assy. on the end of the starter shaft. Remove the bendex assy. and make sure that the spiral spline on the starter shaft is not damaged. If it is, then you need a new starter.

 

[fisheymikey]

just to make sure bendex is the gear? on the top?

if so do you have the part number? so i dont order the wrong part?

thanks

mike

 

[Frank Acampora]

Mike: That bendix is a rather expensive part. As I remember it is more economical to buy a used starter. HOWEVER-- it is a relatively standard part. Look up--that is, google starter repair shops local to you. If they are decent they should be able to supply you with a new one.

Meanwhile: Did you lubricate the starter shaft and hit the bendix with some oil? It has a rubber cushion/ lock inside it and ANY lubrication will cause it to spin freely inside the case. If you did not lube it, then try this: Remove the bendix and chuck it upside-down with the gear part in a vise. Lightly please! Don't **** up the gears. Tap the rim of the case around the perimeter with a hammer and punch to bend the crimp over a little more and tighten the rubber insert. That may give you another season of starts.

Did you try spinning the engine with the plugs out to see if there was any binding yet? you should do that first. It should turn snot slick. If if doesn't, then you may have stuck rings and a snake oil treatment to de-carbon it may help

 

[fisheymikey]

yes i did frank hit the whole starter with some wd40 to lubricate the whole thing and patted it down with paper towels to get rid of all of the carbon.

im planning tomorrow to remove the plugs. quick question...

if i have tried to start the engine without the starter bracket underneath the starter, can that be the reason its having a harder time to start due to ground not connected directly to the starter? or the 2 botls going threw the starter attaching to the housing is ground enough.

 

[Frank Acampora]

The starter grounds through the two mounting bolts and the upper bearing plate pressing on the cast-in mount on the engine. The lower bracket keeps the starter from cocking under heavy loads and breaking the mount or bending the mounting bolts. It is important and should be used. The WD probably worked into the bendix and sadly there is probably nothing you can do to fix it.

You can try removing it and soaking in gasoline or peening the case as I described but in my experience, when the rubber gets lubricated that is the end of the bendix. Might as well just throw it out. I probably have 5 of them sitting in a drawer waiting for me to experiment on them.

 

[StarTed]

I'm with the lower unit guys on this one since you said that you could turn it over with a pull cord previously but not now. I think you have a mechanical failure either in the engine or lower unit. The 1000 amps is that the battery rating or a measured current? 1000 amps on the starter is way too much and will smoke it quickly. A cheap DC ammeter for testing starter current that sets over the wire and responds to the magnetic field could tell you if you are drawing too much current. Way too much current means something stuck, most likely mechanical.

 

[fisheymikey]

ok.. removed the plugs and rhe starter turns it like butter even by hand i could turn it freely...

i had another starter changed out the armature and the bendix. now the the gear is not spinning freely.

another info my starter is not even hot! a few years ago when i first had problems i had bad brushes did not clean and when it struggled like this the cables and the starter would get hot. now when i try to crank over its not even getting warm.

im thinking trying to put jumper cables dirrect and see what happens.

any other ideas im hopping

 

[fisheymikey]

tried that barely even turned...

i just sprayed into the each cylinder powertune and hoping it is a crazy carbon buildup but im reaching...

need to fix my compression guage then ill try that but i really dont think soo its a compression issue.

im more feeling a bad starter.. were the brushes are maybe the guy that rebuild it did not do a great job

 

[fisheymikey]

dropped the lower unit...
still manually or by starter very hard to turn.

can it be the flywheel or something in that area? if i over torqued the flywheel nut can that be it?

or should i be expecting something like crankshaft berings etc...

 

[racerone]

It is NOT the flywheel nut too tight.---------Take starter to qualified shop.

 

[pnwboat]

If the motor turns freely with the plugs out, but doesn't with the plugs in, then it sounds like what racerone suggested. Bad starter, or bad/corroded battery cables.

 

[jerryjerry05]

The battery. 1000 cca. if it has a bad cell it will act like that. Load test??
It will still read 12v but can be bad.
A charger will still put out 12v but no amperage. Could be a battery/ charger problem.
The starter take it apart​ and check the brushes and holder.
The armature could be shorting? Ohm meter and test each winding.

Low compression on 1 cyl. will cause it to turn hard.
Fix your gauge.
The lower unit, if the impeller is still in it can turn hard by hand.
Remove it and try turning it over.

The battery cable, check for bad spots and the ends for corrosion/ weak or swelling spots.

The connections, the ground under the starter can come loose?

When you try turning it over. Check for hot spots in the starting system.

 

[fisheymikey]

i ordered a new aftermarket starter for 51$ so the price is not bad even with the wopping 30% difference in exchange

but i did by also a selenoid for 22$ but think maybe i bought the wrong part. does a magneto solenoid on the 120 force is the same solenoid on the force 125?

does anyone have doen the change or know the difference

thanks

 

[jerryjerry05]

Magneto solenoid?
.Mag or not it shouldn't m​ake a difference.
IF??? there is a difference it might be how it's grounded.
They still work on the same principal.

 

[fisheymikey]

ok thanks Jerry

getting the starter monday or tuesday hopefully that would be the end of my drama for now