Why I Crimp And Never Solder

waterone1@aol.com

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Oct 10, 2004
Messages
1,235
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

This is so funny, I can't believe it is here....again. I spent half of my day repairing electronic equipment, and half of my day doing ship wiring. The first half was soldering components to circuit boards, the second half crimping and soldering. I don't care what the abyc says....I don't manufacture pleasure boats, and I have never had the coast guard crawl under my dash for an inspection. And for the really paranoid.....my insurance agent barely knows a cabin cruiser from a cruise ship. Much less the composition of electrical connections. Once again, this thread is useless and serves no purpose. If you are capable of soldering you know what it does.....if not capable.....bend away. Oh, I forgot to mention, if you or someone in your family has been on a cruise ship in the last 15 years........you have been on a ship that has soldered connections for all of the life/safety systems.......most likely done by me......we don't trust crimp only connections. No need to reply....I don't care!!
 

Ralph 123

Captain
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
3,983
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

Well you should care what the manufacturer of the connectors (terminals) says which is posted above. They specifically recommend you do not crimp and solder.<br /><br />
<br />Crimping takes advantage of work hardening the copper wire barrel to hold the wire in place. Mild heating of the crimp begins to stress-relieve the crimped area. When stresses are relieved, cold weld sites break. Broken cold weld sites increase the resistance between the wire and wire barrel. This, in turn, increases the temperature in the crimp area; further stress relieving the crimp. This scenario continues until the crimp area becomes overheated and may result in melted or burned insulation...<br /><br />Crimped Connection Myths <br /><br />“Soldering or Solder-Dipping Will Improve The Connection” <br /><br />Crimps are designed to work without solder or solder-dipped wire. When solder is present in a crimp, the deformation properties change. When the deformation properties change, metal-flow, cleaning, welding and residual force also change and compromise the mechanical and electrical properties of the crimp. With diminished mechanical properties, the connection may not survive normal uses. Furthermore, as electrical performance diminishes, the perils of static heating arise. Additionally, in some cases, copper wire may become embrittled or solder wicking may affect the flexure strength of the stranded wire. By soldering a crimped connection, the process heat may compromise the crimp. <br />
 

chuckz

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
625
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

Ralph,<br /><br />You have been flim-flammed. The reference material for the soldering information from Tyco dates back to 1950! The solders used today have different materials properties from those used in the referenced source material. Tyco has a vested interest in discouraging soldering. New solders are homogenous mixtures that don't crystallize.<br /><br />Tyco is also the only source that I could find that published this information. Every other source approved soldering if it was done correctly. In most cases soldering was considered unnecessary.
 

Ralph 123

Captain
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
3,983
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

The date on the article is: 03 March 2003<br /><br />
<br />Getting Back To Basics - Insulated Electrical Terminals<br />03 March 2003
You can even call one of the authors. His name and number is right there on the page.<br /><br /> http://www.tycoelectronics.com/prodnews.asp?ID=443 <br /><br />I think the issue is less about crystallization and more about the heat breaking the cold welds as discussed in the article and the annealing web pages cited.<br /><br />This is now two published discussions I've found that talked about this issue with 5 authors:<br /><br />
Jim Dunbar – Product Manager, Insulated Terminals & Splices and Tom Michielutti, Senior Product Engineer, Tyco Electronics, Harrisburg, PA <br /><br /><br />Lysle Gray, Technical Director, ABYC, Paul Michalczyk of ANCOR Marine, and Jim Vaughn of FTZ Industries, all experts in marine wiring, for their consultations in preparing this article.
That's more sources than Newsweek had to start riots all over the Islamic world :)
 

chuckz

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
625
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

The article was dated 2003 but look at the bibliography. The point of the article was to sell crimp on connectors.<br /><br />This is called marketing, it's hardly independent, scientific research.<br /><br />ANCOR Marine, hmmmm don't they make marine grade crimp conectors? Ditto FTZ Industries and Tyco Electronics.<br /> <br />I can and have written compelling articles to convince the reader to buy my service or product. This is called salesmanship.
 

Ralph 123

Captain
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
3,983
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

I was wondering how long it would take for that cynical argument to be made. <br /><br />If soldering and crimping increased the reliability of the terminals they would recommend it because the cost of failures is much higher than anything they make from selling terminals. Recommending that practice or even saying something like, "for mission critical applications we recommend crimping and soldering" would not cost them a nickle in sales and protect their butts from law suits. <br /><br />If crimp-only terminals failed on any regular basis they wouldn't be allowed in military application, autos, etc where the cost of failure far and away exceeds the cost of the terminal or the cost of Assembly.<br /><br />Also, if it was a preferred practice, you'd be able to find it in the Mil-Specs where all they care about is safety and reliability. To date, I haven't be able to find it.<br /><br />Maybe you can find a credible source that says it is a preferred practice along with the rationale and my thinking on the subject will change. Personally, all I care about is using the best practices so I don't get myself or others in trouble 25 miles from shore in 8 foot seas. I've been soldering electronics and cables for close to 30 years, so soldering is no mystery to me and I have nothing against it in general.
 

demsvmejm

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
831
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

Ralph, you are the cynical one. A company exists for one purpose only, to make money. And regardless of how accurate the information is, it will always be slighted to increase sales, or substantiate the existence of the company.<br />As for auto companies and boat manufacturers using crimp on connections, first off, they are an entirely different animal than you or I will buy at the Marine store or NAPA. Secondly, they are faster and easier to assemble than solder joints. And faster and easier = CHEAPER. And that is essentially all the consideration there is to it. Cheaper costs = higher profits.<br />As for your being comfortable with soldering and solder joints, I am sorry if I offend you, but you have no credibility in your statement. A solder joint itself will NEVER corrode. The wires near it will, but the solder joint itself will not. On the other hand, a crimped joint will corrode. And it will corrode quickly when exposed to moisture. So, which would be the "best" connection, one that will not corrode, or one that will, quickly? There is no doubt. As for the brittleness of the joint and the wicking of the solder, THAT is why you must support the wire. Anyone who would run the wire and only support it at both ends, and not along the way is an idiot. That is asking for trouble.<br />As for what I have read in the USCG and AYBC standards, solder is not to be the ONLY means of mechanical connection. This DOES NOT prohibit solder. And the standards state that the wiring will be supported no more that 18" apart. So as JohnRuff describes, his procedure would be acceptable, as long as the splice were another mechanical connection. As for the nail polish, I wonder.<br />What we have here again, is a battle of those who need to substantiate their way of making connections as being superior. This is not a discussion of what way is best or the pros and cons of each, but "My way is best, because that's the way I do it.” Not, "I do it this way because it is the best way." Those in this camp refuse to acknowledge the advantages, and acceptability of the other way. They will defend to the death their position, and won't consider any facts or information that will lend any credibility to the opposing viewpoint.<br />There are drawbacks to crimping, but I as a mechanic, ASE certified in electrical, still crimp connections. There are drawbacks to soldering, but I make connections that way too. I simply weigh the advantages and drawbacks, and decide which method is more advantageous. I do not do both in the same connection though.<br /><br />And Ralph please forgive me if I offended you, I truly did not mean any disrepsect. I just happen to disagree.
 

Ralph 123

Captain
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
3,983
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

No offense taken David. I enjoy having my thinking challenged because it forces me to dig deeper into the topic and understand the issues at a more fundamental level.<br /><br />First, crimp terminals aren't cheaper when you look at the total cost if they are less reliable. The cost of an in warranty repair on an auto, an aircraft falling out of the sky, etc. far outweigh the cost of the connector. You think Formula is going to let a 10 cent connector affect the reliability of an offshore speedboat that costs $750K? Boeing the reliability of a 747? NASA the reliability of the Shuttle? No way.<br /><br />Second, Most consumer electronics solder because it is cheaper to solder wires directly to posts and terminals than to pay for connectors in low cost equipment where reliability is not critical. <br /><br />Corrosion is controlled by properly sealing the joint. However, what good is controlling corrosion when you've broken the cold welds of the crimp and thereby affected the reliability of the connection? <br /><br />Is solder the best way to seal the connection? Consider this:<br /><br />
<br />Contrary to popular belief, solder is not impervious to corrosion. It is a composition of lead and tin. When connected to copper (wire and terminal) in a salt atmosphere, galvanic corrosion can occur, resulting in leaching out of the lead, leaving a powdery residue which is both electrically and mechanically worthless.
Solder is not prohibited nor should it be, but, as I've shown by two published papers and several others I found through Google, including one specifically addressing the aviation industry, it is not recommended to solder a crimp connection if you want to rely on the crimp. On certain rockets we used connectors very similar to the one I showed above and they worked just fine, although they had to be done by people with specific training and certification and each terminal had to be inspected under a microscope before the connector was cleared to be used in the rocket. Then it was off to the shake table for reliability testing.<br /><br />(here is the aviation article, note the last paragraph, dispelling a myth http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/terminal.pdf <br /><br />Again, I am an EE, all I care about is using best practices as defined by the industry. If crimp and solder were the preferred and recommended practice I would follow it in a heart beat. I'm not the one trying to justify my methodology. I came to this topic years ago with a complete and open mind in order to completely rewire my 79 Formula. I studied the subject as it applied to boats, and found it matched my A&D experience and adopted that methodology in my project and subsequent ones. <br /><br />I have to admit, early in my engineering career I was a bit surprised that very little solder was used and that crimps were so reliable. Time on shake tables and a few space shots later I didn't even think about it any more until I found iBoats :) <br /><br />I have provided outside opinions and references to try to substantiate why this is the preferred industry practice. I invite you and the other crimp and solder or solder only folks to do the same. Like I said, I have an open mind and am more than willing to change my thinking if somebody can provide me with something substantial around which to form an opinion.
 

Paul Moir

Admiral
Joined
Nov 5, 2002
Messages
6,847
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

I appologise for making those suggestions and then not following up. But if you're willing to forgive me that, I have a couple small points.<br />Aside from some obscure alloys or nearly pure copper, practical copper alloys (C15500 for example) that would be used in crimp connectors all have annealing temperatures well above solder melt temperatures. Now I know that you would heat the connector to well above that, but these alloys have annealing temperatures somewhere in the 900-1000°F range. I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but I think you'll agree that a normal ring terminal is not made out of pure copper since it would be far too soft annealed or otherwise.<br />Second, in those references you list I see no mention of time. While I have no proof, I know it takes some time to anneal especially when working at the low end of the scale. I suspect those at those temperatures it takes a fantastically long time for appreciable annealing to take place, relative to how long a normal person takes to solder a joint.<br />I personally appreciate your comments in this thread. I don't mean to antagonise, but I do enjoy the arguement. What bothers me is that there seems to be a lot of ancedotes about not soldering crimp connectors from some technically astute people, I just haven't seen them backing it up at all. Like Bob Nuckolls in that article you just referenced, there seems to be a lot of opinion with no explanation.<br />Finally, I don't care if the annealing arguement came out of Lysle's, Paul's or Jim's arse, I still think it stinks. :D <br /><br />(Please, that last bit is a joke. I had it saved up for a come-back and didn't want to waste it. :) )
 

chuckz

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
625
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

Here comes a hand grenade:<br />
NASA.gif
<br /><br />Notice NASA specifically does NOT allow the crimping of tinned wire. All marine grade wire is tinned. To acheive maximum reliability on your boat do you not use tinned wire or not use crimp on connectors?
 

Ralph 123

Captain
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
3,983
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

That's a good question LIC and one that someone else raised before and something I don't have a good answer to. My theory, and it's just a theory, is that marine tinned is very thin and each strand is tinned individually as is the barrel of the connector. What NASA *may* be referring to is hand tinned or dipped wire. I'll note that all the OEM marine cables and harnesses I've seen used untinned marine grade wire (not all marine grade wire is tinned). It's a question that needs to be answered...<br /><br />Paul, I defer to the guys who invented the things and have been making them for 50 years - AMP, now Tyco. They say in their article that even mild heat can break the cold welds by relieving the stress of the crimp which leads to a failure spiral of causing more heat because of increased resistance and therefore more broken cold welds. If you call the author I'm sure he can expound on the subject in greater detail.<br /><br /><br />I think the bottom line is this: If crimp and solder was better, companies like Boeing, Formula and Raytheon would do it. They only care about reliability not about cost when it comes to things like that. No Engineer in their right mind is going to risk a multi-million or multi-billion dollar piece of equipment over a 10 cent connector. Again I say: I have provided outside opinions and references to try to substantiate why this is the preferred industry practice. I invite you and the other crimp and solder or solder only folks to do the same. Like I said, I have an open mind and am more than willing to change my thinking if somebody can provide me with something substantial around which to form an opinion.<br /><br />Hey Rabbit! You having a good laugh or what?! :D
 

chuckz

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
625
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

Ralph,<br /><br />Boeing, Formula and Raytheon only reliability and not cost? You're kidding right? Why do program managers do ROI and risk analysis then?<br /><br />The reason crimp connectors are used in aerospace and millions of dollars were spent developing them are cost, cost and cost. They are MUCH cheaper than soldering. Many cable are made by automated machines at a much faster rate and much less labor than could be manufacturered by soldering.<br /><br />NASA uses the smallest gauge wire suitable for the load. They uses smaller than 16 gauge wire for many applications. The assertion that they are concerned about hand tinned or dipped wire is plain silly. The amount of solder, weight, used in NASA wiring is very carefully controlled.<br /><br />Incidently Ralph, I worked for a company that went out and rewired military airplanes because the connectors were no good. With the cost pressures today an engineer would be crazy not to save the 10 cents per connector. The automotive industries runs test not to enhance dependablity but to fabricate a product at the least cost, with the least amount of materials, that will meet their standards.<br /><br />
Like I said, I have an open mind and am more than willing to change my thinking if somebody can provide me with something substantial around which to form an opinion.
Ralph, I just gave you a NASA Workmanship Standard, isn't that substantial enough?<br /><br />I stand by my original position, either method, soldering or crimping, is suitable for a marine application if done properly. You assertion of crimp only is indefensible.<br /><br />I'm done.
 

Ralph 123

Captain
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
3,983
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

You are completely misrepresenting my position. The ABYC recommendations clearly state that solder shall not be the sole means of connection except in one specific instance. The question then became, is solder and crimp acceptable to ABYC? The answer is, yes, it seems to pass the ABYC test. The question then became, well is it a good practice and/or a preferred practice? I think the evidence speaks for itself.<br /><br />The workmanship standard substantiates my points no solder and crimping provides a stronger more reliable connection than soldering. How does it prove that soldering and/or soldering and crimping is better than crimping only? Maybe I missed something? <br /><br />
<br />Crimping is an efficient and highly reliable method to assemble and terminate conductors, and typically provides a stronger, more reliable termination method than achieved by soldering
The question now is, does individually tinned stranded marine grade wire affect the quality of crimp and to that I have no answer yet. Like I said, all the OEM cables and harnesses I've seen are not tinned, nor have I ever said you must use tinned wire. Hand tinned wire and/or dipped wire will cause stranded wire to become a lot like solid wire. From Paul's post above<br /><br />
NOTE: When a stranded conductor is soldered, the soldered portion of the conductor becomes a solid strand conductor, and flexing can cause the conductor to break at the end of the solder joint unless adequate additional support is provided.
Most (99%) of A&D projects are cost plus. That means the more it cost you to put something together the more the Gov let's you charge. I've never been involved in one where a discussion of connector component costs were ever even discussed. The largest I was involved with was $1B.
 

Realgun

Commander
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
2,484
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

L.I. Chuck you gotta be kidding everything you reference is for rockets not boats. NASA does not do boats. Rocket, planes, and maybe trains but not boats! :) <br /><br />I am following the aBYC and thats where it stops.<br />Nobody is going to make me solder those connections it was hard enough crimping and heat shrinking them. And yes I soldered 2 lugs so as not to have to undo two hours work just to crimp :D <br /><br />Then they were all gathered together and screwed to the boat so as not to move and have a wee little dip to provide strain relief.<br /><br />Well maybe my grand kids can rewire the boat if it needs doing. :D
 

18rabbit

Captain
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
3,202
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

Originally posted by L.I. Chuck:<br /> Notice NASA specifically does NOT allow the crimping of tinned wire.
That’s not the way I read it. What I read is “solder-tinned” wire is prohibited from crimping. That makes sense to me. ‘Solder-tinning’ is a process where you heat the conductor, either bare copper or tinned-copper, and apply solder to it. Now that the wire has solder on it, NASA prohibits the crimping of that wire. Any wire that has been removed from a soldered connection (heated and separated from the connector) is a solder-tinned wire.<br /><br />Electrical copper is soft and will flow when crimped. The application of solder prior to crimping inhibits the benefit of the copper’s deformation when a wire is crimped, yielding an inferior connection both mechanically and, thus potentially electrically as well. In the case of multi-strand wires like we use on boats, the application of the solder will prevent the individual conductors from moving and assuming the “U” shape of the connector’s barrel when crimped. It’s probably the worst of all possible connections...except maybe JB’s use of Krazy-glue to connect the cables to his battery.<br /> :) <br /><br />I solder-tinned the leads for my inverter/charger’s control panel. It was that or hunt down some tinned pin connectors. Each of those solder-tinned leads are plugged into a socket and held in place with a screw/clamp. Nothing is soldered, only solder-tinned.<br /><br />
Originally posted by Ralph:<br /> Hey Rabbit! You having a good laugh or what?! :D
Ralph, why bring me into this?!?!?<br /> :D <br /><br />Btw, the topic of this thread was originally about avoiding the potential liability (insurance) of not following industry standards for any electrical connection, whatever those stds may be. It had nothing to do with the pros and cons of cvs (crimp vs. solder). But there is some good stuff being posted here!<br /> :)
 

Ralph 123

Captain
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
3,983
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

Because you started it! :D <br /><br />That's my take as well but I have an expert on it and hope to have a definitive answer to post next week. I contacted one of the application engineers from one of the big manufacturers to ask him why it was ok to crimp their individually tinned wire (their recommended practice). I don't think NASA had that sort of wire in mind when talking about crimping - it has no real use in space. They mention tinned wire along with solid conductors and component leads which seems to indicate a concern about crimping solid or near solid conductors, but I'm waiting for an explanation.<br /><br />We did have a discussion about crimp and solder and heat breaking the cold welds. He said, yes that is a concern but they had several more basic reasons why they don't recommend crimping and soldering which come down to a lack of proper soldering training among the average boater and they can cause more harm than good: 1) solder can <br />wick up under the insulation causing stress points that may fracture later. 2) Cold solder joints are also of concern along with 3) the choice of solder with acid flux as opposed to rosin core solder. 4) The crimp of a good quality terminal will provide a more reliable joint and with ratcheting crimp tools a crimp can be made far more reliably then a solder joint.<br /><br />He said they run into those that want to do both (crimp and solder) on their terminals all the time and in some cases there is just no changing their mind. :D
 

demsvmejm

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
831
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

I am finding that I must separate myself from the pack here. Ralph, you are doing a great job of providing information. But like I stated earlier, reports published by a manufacturer or distributor have one main goal, to sell product. Only when the source is independent is the report truly credible. As for the CVS debate, I still believe both have their place, and both have their advantages and disadvantages. While working on my boat today I had cause to remove the windshield wiper motor. The power wire stayed with the boat and the crimp spade terminal came down with the motor. Being a skilled tradesman, I have a keen sense of tension and resistance and there was none. The wire simply pulled out of the factory crimp. I also had to pull the tachometer out and while removing the wires from the back I looked at the terminals on the other instruments. What I saw was horrifying. 16ga wire going in to 10-12ga crimp terminals. And this is a SeaRay, so the quality is supposed to be top-notch, and none of the crimps were v-notch crimps. And the wires were not individually tinned. I repaired the wiper problem by crimping on a new terminal. A tin coated copper crimp-only connector.<br />I crimp terminals on to make connections. I NEVER crimp and solder. I did that only once, and that was on a battery cable lug and only because that was the way I was instructed to do it by a superior, and much more experienced technician. If I am connecting two wires in a butt fashion I may and usually do solder the connection. If I am terminating a circuit/wire/connection (however you want to word it) I generally crimp. If the connection is external to the vehicle, I always seal the connection. This is a cost v benefit decision, and generally the crimp will provide adequate reliability and therefore being easier and quicker (read less expensive @ $60.00/hr) the cost v benefit is definitely in favor of the crimp.<br />I have never tried to slander a crimp connection, I have simply tried to defend the solder connection as being equal or superior in reliability when properly executed. Based on my experience with both machine and hand crimped connections no one will ever convince me that crimped connections are superior to a properly soldered connection. This is based on my extensive experience. As for the ABYC standards, they do not prohibit solder, they simply state that solder can’t be the sole means of a mechanical connection. And anyone who would lay two wires side-by-side and then solder would be a fool. I always intertwine the wires and in someway mechanically connect them before soldering. And ABYC standards stipulate that the wires should be supported at no more than 18” intervals, so this would accommodate the flexing and stress fracturing of the solder joint. The issue raised about the difficulty of achieving a properly soldered joint is a valid issue. But a proper crimp is an art too. But when you can buy a crimping tool for <$5.00 at the hardware store and simply squeeze the handle, any moron can think he knows how to crimp, when in actuality his crimp is a poor connection too. So that argument is a wash.<br />Based on everything you all have presented regarding standards and mandates, I think that my general practices would be found acceptable, and within established standards and practices of the industry. And when my reputation on the line with my customers, I will take no second chances, it will be done right, the first time. So I will assess the situation and choose the best method for the specific situation.<br />Thank you all for your input on this topic.
 

18rabbit

Captain
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
3,202
Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

The USCG pushed for and got a requirement for DSC with GPS interface on VHF radios. That was done for safety reasons only. The USCG seems to be implying approval of a soldered connection for safety related equipment.<br /><br />From the USCG website:<br /><br />Interconnection to a GPS Receiver<br /> <br />... Although NMEA has no standard for the type of connector used, many if not most DSC and GPS receiver manufactures use bar wire connections. These wires are simply connected between the radio and the GPS by twisting the wires (some people solder) and tape (some people use waterproof heat shrink tubing). Note also that NMEA 0183 and IEC 61162-1 data interfaces are identical.<br /><br />Personally, I differentiate between electrical and electronical. To me, a NMEA 0183 connection is electronical so soldering is ok for those connections. I still wouldn't do it only because it's not necessary and the time required to make a soldered connection, per David's excellent post above. Connecting any of the NEMA 0138 stuff has its own special considerations.
 
Top