Navigation Light Alarm Panel

[phnphunk]

Greetings to the list,
I am an instructor at a trade school specializing in marine systems. I am looking for a relatively simple wiring diagram that would include LED indicator lights and an alarm function for a standard navigation light circuit. Any and all help would be appreciated.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

An alarm function for what? A burned out bulb? And what are the LED lights for? To tell you when the NAV lights are on? If all of these are true, then just because there is an indicator light for the nav lights, it does not guarantee the light is actually on. It would merely indicate the switch is on. There are a gazillion switches on the market with built in indicators so no diagram is really needed. As for an alarm -- that's puzzling so a little more detail about what you are trying to accomplish would be extremely helpful. Armed with more info, I would be happy to configure something for you. However, if you are an instructor at a marine school, I would assume there are also some marine electrical instructors at this school that could provide what you need.

 

[twistedshadows]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

actually if you ran a light in series with the wiring to the nav light it would tell u if it was working or not. if the nav light is on the other light would be to, if the nav light or wiring burnt they would break the circuit which would turn off the other light (ever had to deal with christmas lights where 1 bad bulb makes all the light go out well same concept). its how the little boxes in high end cars can tell if u have a light out. now the alarm thing i have no idea what ur talking about or why u would even need one, hell i dont even know why u need the light ether, you can just look at the front of ur boat and see the glow of the nav light (thats what i do to know its working)
joe

 

[Mark42]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

Greetings to the list,
I am an instructor at a trade school specializing in marine systems. I am looking for a relatively simple wiring diagram that would include LED indicator lights and an alarm function for a standard navigation light circuit. Any and all help would be appreciated.

Wait a minute. You teach at a Trade School that SPECIALIZES in MARINE SYSTEMS, and can't find a basic navigation wire diagram in the school?

Did you try google?

So you decide the quickest way to get the info is to register on a boat forum and ask people you don't know.

Smells fishy to me.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

I've posted these two diagrams many times in this forum so here they are again. The diagram below uses a six pole ON-OFF-ON switch to control the nav lights.

The diagram below uses a less expensive three pole ON-OFF-ON switch to do the same job but the diode is needed to prevent the bow light from turning on when the switch is set to the ANC position. Now then -- what more do you need and why? It doesn't get any simpler or less expensive than this.

 

[sasto]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

Fiber optic tubing also makes for a good indicator.

 

[phnphunk]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

Hey, thanks for all the pointers.
Most Classification Organizations require navigation light alarm panels. Simple wiring through a switch to navigation lights doesn't really require much effort. I am trying to give my students something a little more interesting.

I was planning on running a dpst relay in series with each of the three standard 25W navigation lights. If a bulb was out the LED would not light and the alarm would sound. Simply looking at the light panel would show where the bulb was out so in inclement weather you don?t have to run around looking and can go straight to the bulb that is out.

I know however there are hundreds of companies building these systems both for custom yachts and commercial shipping and I was wondering if anyone had tackled it with a single relay or diodes.

Any diagrams would be appreciated.

 

[twistedshadows]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

this is a very simple diagram using a no power closed/ power open relay. (honestly you should have been able to come up with this ur self) obviously there would be some modification if you want multiple alarms for each light. but as i said the easiest way to achieve something like this would just to be to run a light on the panel in series with the nav/anchor lights if the nav light or wiring to the light burn out then the light on the panel would also go out telling you which light is out.
joe

 

[sasto]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

Teach you students to never reley on an alarm.....watch the gauges.....engine room checks.....lights....on and on. I like your thinking...but there is a need for liability on the operator. I feel your need to know if there is a system malfunctioning. ..Good for you....I am interested as well.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

Lets look at what happens when you apply another load in series with a 12 volt lamp. You lose intensity. Comparing this to a string of Christmas lights is not valid since those bulbs are rated much lower than the 115 volt power source. Someone earlier suggested inserting another lamp in series with the nav lights. That too decreases intensity and would violate the "visibility" requirements. The same thing applies with inserting a relay coil in series with the light -- you decrease the voltage to the light(s). The most foolproof solution, and non-electrical to boot, was the fiber optic cable suggestion. This was done on many cars in the seventies and eighties. My 1978 and 1981 Olds Regency had optics above the rear window so one could look in the rear view mirror and tell if brake,turn, and tail lights were working. A little pod with three indicators was place on each front fender to indicate if turn, high and low beams were working. Worked great. If such an alarm panel is actually required in some applications, then there should be schematics available from the folks that make them.

This is an example of what you are trying to design/build:

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090167329

 

[twistedshadows]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

very true about losing intensity when adding other loads to the system but i dont think this would be the case if you were to add a LED as the indicator light in series. now the relay im not sure how much load it would put on the system but i honestly dont believe it would effect the brightness of a nav/anchor light.
i had to move the stern/360 light on my boat because i couldnt get a new bar with the same length and curve as the old one and i covered the hole caused by moving it by replacing it with a light to illuminate the swim platform, i ran the wiring for it parallel to the 360 light and i have not noticed any difference in brightness but then again this is parallel and not in series.
joe

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

An LED has resistance as does a regular bulb, a relay coil, or a resistor. They all represent resistance. Two 12 volt bulbs in series will result in cutting voltage to both bulbs by 1/2. Obviously you can parallel 50 bulbs and intensity will not change, And just so you know, a relay coil has far more resistance than the filament of a bulb so you would be lucky to have a faint glimmer from the bulb. Stay tuned for proof.

 

[twistedshadows]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

still not sure about how much effect adding a led in series would cause (ill have to looks up some resistance values and do the math) now the relay i have NO clue about, but i would think just a coil of wire would have a low resistance value to but i do know they can have a high power draw which would effect the brightness of a light in series. would love to see a example of how a relay would effect the brightness of a light when in series. it would also be cool to see the effect with multiple bulbs (some people have the side nav lights and maybe tempted to run them in series) and of course leds maybe 1 regular filament bulb and 1 led, then 2 leds just to give us all a good idea.
joe

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

A small 12 volt relay coil draws approximately 150 ma. A 12 volt bulb draws between 250 and 300 ma. Therefore if you put a 12 volt relay coil in series with a 12 volt bulb you will cut voltage to the bulb by about 33%. Can you say DIM! Adding an LED in series also requires addition of a resistor. That resistor value (ohms) depends on the LED used but the net effect is the same as adding any other load. Regardless if you use an inductive or resistive load, you will significantly cut light output by adding those loads in series with a bulb.

 

[twistedshadows]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

why would you need to add the resistor to the led if you were putting it in series with a filament bulb? (im not trying to start a pissing contest here just love learning new stuff and its been a while since my electrical class back in school)

 

[sasto]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

Couldn't one use a photocell, a light dependent resistor, like one found in the light sensors of that turns a light on at dark and off at daylight? Maybe wired thru a relay to set off a buzzer when not activated?....... Fiber optics are still used on our new Caddy.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

Did you ever look at a circuit that has a LED in it? I suggest you do so.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

Did you ever look at a circuit that has a LED in it? What do you suppose that tiny little circuit board is that the LED is mounted to? It contains surface mounted resistor(s). I suggest you read this:

http://www.theledlight.com/LED101.html

Back to the original problem. Adding anything other than a current sensing circuit will diminish the light output or eliminate light output entirely. A current sensing device is one that is a rather sophisticated circuit the can detect current flow in a circuit. That circuit presents no resistance to the circuit under test. A Fluke current meter would be an examle of such a device. A capacity coupled device would be another. The post in which I provided a link to a patent is an example of why this issue is not as simple as sticking another bulb, relay, or whatever in series with the lamp. People do not waste their time patenting a design if a simple LED or photocell would do the job. Another example of such a device is the "over voltage" and "under voltage" protection circuits built into nearly every more sophisticated 12 volt accessory for a boat.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

Here is a real life example of what happens to light output when you add resistance to the circuit. Below are two photos. The first shows the light intensity with a single, 12 volt bulb. The second photo shows the intensity with two of these bulbs in series. The naked eye views this difference in intensity much more than the CCD element in a camera but nevertheless, light output is half what the single bulb exhibits. That would translate to failing the visibility requirements for the nav lights.

The resistance of those bulbs is 2.5 ohms. Adding anything to the circuit with more resistance than that decreases light output even more.

I rest my case.

 

[sasto]

Re: Navigation Light Alarm Panel

Did you ever look at a circuit that has a LED in it? What do you suppose that tiny little circuit board is that the LED is mounted to? It contains surface mounted resistor(s). I suggest you read this:

http://www.theledlight.com/LED101.html

Back to the original problem. Adding anything other than a current sensing circuit will diminish the light output or eliminate light output entirely. A current sensing device is one that is a rather sophisticated circuit the can detect current flow in a circuit. That circuit presents no resistance to the circuit under test. A Fluke current meter would be an examle of such a device. A capacity coupled device would be another. The post in which I provided a link to a patent is an example of why this issue is not as simple as sticking another bulb, relay, or whatever in series with the lamp. People do not waste their time patenting a design if a simple LED or photocell would do the job. Another example of such a device is the "over voltage" and "under voltage" protection circuits built into nearly every more sophisticated 12 volt accessory for a boat.

Explain further Silvertip...I personally don't get it...are we discussing or debating....I want to learn more about this.