Need help building marine speaker boxes??

fishrdan

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Re: Need help building marine speaker boxes??

I'm still sticking with my recommendation of the Arauco plywood. A 3/4 lay-up has something like 12 plies, is virtually void free and is soft enough that I think it would have good dampening characteristics.

After all, we are most likely talking about a pair of inexpensive subs that are being installed to give a bit of thump and rumble, not an audiophile quality installation.
 

NSBCraig

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Re: Need help building marine speaker boxes??

Hey John anybody that even begins to think they can even remotely build a speaker cabinet that will function anywhere near what companies with the most experienced engineers using the most expensive research tools etc. is just plain out of it.

Every driver reacts differently as do crossovers and amps.

What about time alignment?

Your just guessing!

I had classes on speaker design in college, and I know what's out there for resources.

Unless you can honestly say your on John Meyers' level- your guessing.

The majority of people who build speaker cabinets are not even trying to get an accurate response.

It's about looking cool in your car etc.
 

NSBCraig

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Re: Need help building marine speaker boxes??

Hey Dan,

I'm thinking the glass/resin seal will negate the softness for dampening.

That's why I said just use some 1/2" and glass.

No real need to add extra weight if the return isn't really there.

What do you think?
 

rtpassini

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Nov 27, 2008
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Re: Need help building marine speaker boxes??

Hey John anybody that even begins to think they can even remotely build a speaker cabinet that will function anywhere near what companies with the most experienced engineers using the most expensive research tools etc. is just plain out of it.

Every driver reacts differently as do crossovers and amps.

What about time alignment?

Your just guessing!

I had classes on speaker design in college, and I know what's out there for resources.

Unless you can honestly say your on John Meyers' level- your guessing.

The majority of people who build speaker cabinets are not even trying to get an accurate response.

It's about looking cool in your car etc.

you know JBL gives instructions on how to build theirs right? Its not hard. you just need to know cabinet to buld for that speaker. Its not like they are complicated.
 

fishrdan

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Re: Need help building marine speaker boxes??

Hey Dan,

I'm thinking the glass/resin seal will negate the softness for dampening.

That's why I said just use some 1/2" and glass.

No real need to add extra weight if the return isn't really there.

What do you think?

I was thinking of a 3/4"plywood enclosure, totally sealed on the exterior along with the cut edges for the sub and screw holes,,, but leave the interior unsealed for dampening. Yeah it's susceptible to moisture from the interior, but if the sub is leak-proof, the sub to enclosure seal is leak-proof and the box is leak-roof, moisture shouldn't be a problem,,, hopefully :rolleyes:

I don't like fiberglassing the interior as the surface is too hard, reflects noise, ringing and it needs to have something applied to the glass to damped the glass's surface, just my experience from a couple of glass enclosures.
 

NSBCraig

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Re: Need help building marine speaker boxes??

Oh see I was thinking about sealing the inside.

I see your point.

I wonder how they dampen those poly/ plastic ones.

Like the Mackie active PA cabs they sound phenomenal.

Your probably right though if you have a marine speaker and mount it where it shouldn't get wet then it really shouldn't absorb too much water.
 

NSBCraig

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Re: Need help building marine speaker boxes??

you know JBL gives instructions on how to build theirs right? Its not hard. you just need to know cabinet to buld for that speaker. Its not like they are complicated.

You know when you said your brother had JBL's it was kind of like you were using the quality of a JBL product to define what a quality cabinet was.

This in the first place doesn't really work because JBL has different lines that all use the fact that they make real good stuff as a way to convince someone that their product of other lines are better then others.

Then you kind own up and say the are not JBL cabinets they are homemade that a friend made.

Did you know that JBl makes rack mount processors that do the time alignment etc for you? (it's the only way they recommend using old school cabs)

Now I'm sure we all agree not many people are gonna bust out a real-time analyzer and properly tune the sound system in their boat so this moot point really makes little sense. (let alone tune the listening environment in the boat)

It's all bogged down cause someone doesn't like that fact that MDF really isn't the best sounding or choice for the application.

Yes I understand that there are passed around designs that will get you real close to a quality enclousure and that the most popular thing to use is MDF.

This doesn't mean that they even remotely could be considered the best or even close to it.

I really don't get the point of John saying that some people (not him) have all kinds of equipment that cost more then my near fields?

That's great somebody else has a lot of cool things I don't.

If you guys know so much how about adding to the conversation?

If we put are minds together we could come up with a great resource for someone adding tunes to their boat.
 

PondTunes

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Re: Need help building marine speaker boxes??

Theres another product out there that goes by the brand name Advantech, its available at most home centers and resembles OSB. The appearance is the ONLY thing similar about these two products, if you have ever used OSB you know it can't get wet or it will delaminate and hold water, the same holds true for MDF, another good product that has it's uses but is not suited for a marine environment..

Advantech is commonly used in the construction industry in subfloors it has a 50 year warranty.. To look at it it resembles OSB but this product will NOT absorb water. You can take a 3/4" sheet of advantech cut it into strips and throw it in a pond, if you wait a week and fish it out it will still be straight and true, run a saw through it and you get dry sawdust it absolutly doesn't take on water.

I've used it in the construciton of custom speaker enclosures where normally marine plywood or glassing would be the only alternative

The thing about MDF is doesn't shrink and warp like plywood does however MDF will come apart in a marine environment. Granted your home speaker cabinets that are made out of 3/4" plywood are going to be quite stout and durable but if you sit them outside on the deck where the sun can bake on them they're going to deform.

Advantech has all the advantages of marine plywood without the warpage and costs less, you can apply sealants and adhesives directly to it and carpet it, or prime and paint the stuff.
 

John_S

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Re: Need help building marine speaker boxes??

Hey John anybody that even begins to think they can even remotely build a speaker cabinet that will function anywhere near what companies with the most experienced engineers using the most expensive research tools etc. is just plain out of it.

Every driver reacts differently as do crossovers and amps.

# you test the driver parameters to determine correct calculation for box volume. Ussually, mfg specs are off by 10% or more. You also make sure the drivers are close enough for matching for a stereo pair. Lower cost drivers might require you to buy a few to get decent matches. Most of the drivers I last worked with, was not an issue. Same from crossover components.

# you next build a baffle close to what you will design or design a box such that you can make final adjustment latter, and do frequency measurements.

What about time alignment?

# this is measured on the step above to get the real time alignment between drivers.

Your just guessing!

# Nope. Disagree 100%

I had classes on speaker design in college, and I know what's out there for resources.

Unless you can honestly say your on John Meyers' level- your guessing.

The majority of people who build speaker cabinets are not even trying to get an accurate response.

# I have not been active in the hobby for 3-4 years. I am sure things have improved since then. Even back then, much of the S/W can be had for nothing. There was actually a S/W consortium of people who wrote S/W specificly for speaker design.

There are many people that get into it just to build a cost effective speaker system. They are ussually provided advice to use an existing published design or to just modify or tweak it slightly.

It's about looking cool in your car etc.

http://www.speakerworkshop.com/

http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/frdgroup.htm
 

John_S

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Re: Need help building marine speaker boxes??

I really don't get the point of John saying that some people (not him) have all kinds of equipment that cost more then my near fields?

The point I was trying to make was that most of the people I was involved with were NOT just a bunch of idiots slapping drivers in a box. Most had engineering backgrounds. Some had worked or currently worked in some form of the audio industry. It is basicly a shrinking industry, so many are in it just for the hobby now.

BTW, I didn't say that I did not have any equipment. I wasn't about to try to figure out how much I have spent on what I do have. But, it includes test amps, test jigs, numerous mics, test cabinets, test baffles, sound meters, boxes & bags of caps, coils, resistors, test tones, precision multimeter, and lots of tested and unused drivers. Design S/W included allot of the free stuff with some purchased like the old crossover design S/W, Calsod (DOS based). You collect allot of stuff over the years with something that started in the '70's (back in the guessing days).
 

NSBCraig

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Re: Need help building marine speaker boxes??

"that would buy a number of pairs of these Alesis monitors", how does that have anything to do with wether or not the people that get into building speaker cabs are idiots?

Personally I would have liked to have gotten a pair of the active Mackie near-fields but I had to compromise a lot in the $40,000 I spent on my studio or I should have been smart and just spent most of it at different peoples studios and lived better.

But I settled on the matched set of the monitor ones and the RA-100 amp cause they're good enough, besides most stuff is mixed on Yamaha NS-10's anyway.

No just admit it that was a stupid shot, nothing more.

Well of course there are people out there that have engineering backgrounds who like to play with speakers.

What percent of the people actually making cabinets are they?

Real small huh?

What was your background again?

You seem to want to step all over the thread so rock on and tell us cause all I've gotten so far was that there are people out there that know what they are doing and you've been playing since the 70's when everyone was clueless?
 

PondTunes

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Messages
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Re: Need help building marine speaker boxes??

Comparing an audio system used in studio environment to a boat or car is like comparing a pogo stick to a hovercraft, they are totally different worlds. A car has a much higher noise floor than a studio or even your living room. You're already competing with road noise, rattles, the engine, and other cars. In a boat this is even more of a problem! A studio environment typically has walls covered with sound absorbing materials and or special wall coverings that aren't flat and won't bounce sound back at you. Cars and boats don't have this option, they have flat surfaces with minimal sound absorption capabilities.

In most cases boat speakers are laid out similar to car speakers meaning you're probably sitting right next to one while you're driving. So the only high frequency sound that you hear is the coming from speaker closest to you. Since the sound waves are actually hitting your ears at different times your brain detects the slower waves and ignores them, otherwise you would be hearing an echo effect.. (Ever been to the beach or a concert where they have speakers that are several hundred feet apart? You can stand in spots and hear sound coming from one speaker and then hear it again from the next? The sound left the speakers at the same time however the distance was great enough that your brain no longer thinks they are the same transmission.) Short of sitting the exact same distance from every speaker in your setup or investing in specialized time alignment processors you're not going to get the proper sound image coming from your mobile system anyways.

In a car or boat environment just to overcome the natural ambient noise you're going to have to have more power, if you're trying to put a stereo in that you're going to be able to hear clearly over a loud boat engine you're going to have to have even more. The higher you crank up the volume control the more power required to push the speakers, running a speaker with not enough power will destroy them. Getting into selecting a proper amplifier is an entirely new ballgame. Home and mobile audio again differ here as the law doesn't really require mobile amplifier manufacturers to list every detail about their power ratings on the box, so lots of times it comes down to price when people go about selecting an amplifier. Some companies use a dummy load rather than an actual speaker to measure power, they also use non realistic power supplies while they are measuring the maximum power output. Say for example while testing they ran the input voltage at 20 volts, then blasted the amp with a single note and it lasted for half a second before it let the smoke out. They could then legally record this as the maximum power output of the amplifier and market it this way, ignoring the fact that your 12 volt system is not going to be capable of putting 20 volts into the amp. (Ever notice how a system will sound louder with the engine running? The reason for this is the amplifier instead of running at 11-12 volts with the engine off is now running at around 14 volts due to the alternator charging the battery) That being said when you go out shopping for an amplifier don't just jump on the one that is on sale that claims 200 watts for 90 bucks.. The old saying here about being too good to be true always applies, if an amplifier costs less than a dollar per watt you're throwing your money away. You would get more power buying a quality 50 watt amplifier that cost 200.00

While you can have good sound in a car or on a boat it is silly to compare a car or boat stereo or any component in it to a closed studio or even a good home theater system. You have to be practical, choose a material that is going to hold up good for the life of the system. MDF and Plywood have their uses but their lifespan is limited on a boat. Your speaker & subwoofer locations are also quite limited to the available space you have. If it's mounted near or pointed at a vertical surface on your boat the sound waves are going to reflect off of it and there will be places in the boat where there is a noticeable difference in the sound.

Another major contributor to good sound will be the enclosure size itself, it has to have volume or air space normally measured in cubic feet. Ideally you would measure the airspace requirement for each subwoofer but most people aren't going to go to the trouble to do that so checking with the manufacturer for their recommendation of airspace is the other option.
In conclusion build your sub box out of something that is going to last, the thicker the material the better. 1/2" material will actually resonate and you'll hear the wood vibrate.
 

John_S

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Re: Need help building marine speaker boxes??

Pond Tunes:

I agree that both cars and boats are only a casual listening environment. The Advantech product you mention sounds interesting, and will have to research for future info. Thx.

My recommendation of using 5/8" plywood was based on the relative small size of the box, glassing of at least the outside, and with additional bracing. That should provide fairly stiff panels. Going to 3/4" would be stiffer but adds more weight. Weight quickly adds up in a boat, and doesn't take long before you are looking for ways to decrease it. For myself, I would not even bother with a sub in a boat. But, dampening the cabinet is easy compared to all the rest of the boat that will start resonating.


NSBCraig:

I have no idea how many people out there just slap some drivers in a cabinet and call them speakers. Maybe in car audio, but these days there is still just declining interest in good home stereos and equipment. It is now an iPod world. You are the one that implied that was all that most speaker builders were. I just tried to point you to info that showed that your assumptions may not be correct.

If you anything further to say to me, please do it via PM.
 

John_S

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Re: Need help building marine speaker boxes??

Pond Tunes,

Have you used Advantech to make speaker cabinets? I couldn't find anyone that has made outdoor or patio speakers with it, but there must be someone that has. I did find people praising its water resistance/proof for sub-floors.

Not wanting to be the 1st that experiemented with it, there are a couple of things I would want to know before going forward with boat speakers. Not sure what would make a good seal for the joints. Normal woodworkers glue would be out (can't penetrate). Poly based? Normally need to wet wood products while using that. Construction adheasive should hold it together, but shrinks and would leak in a speaker box. Is there a special caulk that adhears to it? Another concern or unknown: can this be glassed over?

While I didn't go research how much, this material is said to be heavier than plywood. While that might be additional concern in a boat, my interest was for patio speakers, where that won't be an issue.
 

NSBCraig

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Re: Need help building marine speaker boxes??

Did you see the sheathing product not just the floor stuff.

Wonder what it weighs?

What's it cost? Anybody know?
 

PondTunes

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Re: Need help building marine speaker boxes??

At present a sheet of 23/32" advantech is about 20.00 for a 4x8 sheet, compared to birch plywood that is 60.00 / sheet. Don't know what marine plywood is at presently. If you use a polyurathane adhesive you should be fine, my personal favorite is Sika-Flex 201, it's a little more expensive but the adhesives will hold up extremely well. A good second choice would be PL Construction adhesive, I would get the one in the greenish tube, it says right on the box for wet and frozen lumber. It won't care that the stuff isn't wet or frozen it just doesn't dry out like the other stuff. I've built several speaker enclosures with advantech and would recommend it, treat it like you would treat mdf, use a countersink bit and don't try to just power a screw in and you'll have a very nice job. As for glassing it should take glass just like plywood, it is sanded smooth so you might need to rough it up a little bit before glassing.


Flooring Sizes & Weights:
23/32 closest to 3/4, found in lowes commonly. Weight 75 lbs

After looking on their website it appears that they have tons of sizes and thicknesses available, with the thickest being 1 1/8" thick. (Weight on 1 1/8" = 124 lbs!)

The 5/8" roof sheathing weighs 68 lbs / panel.
 

John_S

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Re: Need help building marine speaker boxes??

Thanks for the update. Someday I will get back to building some more, and the patio is one of the areas that doesn't have speakers yet.
 
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