Foam and structural weep holes back to transom?

[kcassells]

So, I've been trying to put my head around this concept. Typically stringers, bulkheads let water run back to the transom area where a bilge pump takes it out or comes out of the drain off in the transom/plug.

So if I allowed all my stringers, bulkheads with drainage weep holes to proceed to the transom area to drain/pump out and then I fill those areas to the transome with foam don't I then restrict the concept of drainage to rear? The foam will fill the weep holes with its tenacity, eventually absorb the moisture, help to rot/mildew the areas below.
I'm not sure that I have seen a concept/installation that allows flow of water that can get under the boat in regards to the use of foam as a flotation device.
Of course all the wells on the deck can have drainage hoses to the bilge area but water still gets into other areas that need to be sent to the bilge.

 

[jigngrub]

By the time the water works it's way down through the foam to the hull to drain through the foam filled limber holes it's too late and the foam is now saturated. There is no "below foam drainage". If you want drainage you have to leave a clear path between limber holes with no foam.... or you can foam everything solid and lay your deck in watertight.

Your boat has to suffer neglect and exposure over and extended period of time to become saturated by water intrusion, show it the proper care and you won't have any worries.

 

[kcassells]

I was thinking more of water in the hull up the foam. Not the way you suggested water would penetrate if a deck were installed properly. Seems that most problems with saturation start from the bottom up. So my question was why block/foam drainage paths with foam? Thats what I cant get my head around yet.
Let the water flow...but foam seems to comprimise that. The foam blocked limber holes from the bottom up are the problem.

 

[Mikeopsycho]

I know where you're coming from kcassells. I was going to build in drainage from all under deck areas, but the more I thought of it the more I figured I'd be just as likely to provide a path for water to enter these under deck areas from the bilge as to drain water from them.....whew, long sentence :faint:. In my case I decided to drain only the water and gas tank compartments, which are raised above the bottom of the hull, and have no foam. I am sealing all the other bellow deck areas, filling with 2 part foam, no drainage at all.

What jigngrub says makes sense to me '"there is no 'bellow foam drainage'".

 

[jigngrub]

Seems that most problems with saturation start from the bottom up. So my question was why block/foam drainage paths with foam? Thats what I cant get my head around yet.
Let the water flow...but foam seems to comprimise that. The foam blocked limber holes from the bottom up are the problem.

From the bottom up happens when there's a breach in the hull and the boat is left moored or slipped and water is allowed to stand in the below deck area and when the boat is trailered and the plug is left in and water is allowed to accumulate in the below deck areas... both of which I consider neglect.

There's also the poorly done foam jobs that have large craters/voids below deck that allow water to collect in little "ponds" below deck this water never evaporates or drains and just sits there year after year saturating the foam. This water usually comes from above deck through weak and worn spots in the deck.

The SOFT spots we see and hear about on all of the rotten boats that come through here are weak/worn spots that water has found a way into and these are "drains" that let water below deck to fill the voids in the foam and fill the below deck area because the plug was left in the boat.

There are lots of ways for a water to enter a boat, but only 2 ways to get rid of it, drain or pump.

 

[Woodonglass]

This has been discussed "Ad Infinitum" here on the forum. Back in the day when "OOPS was a dominant poster he posted what he considered a viable method for foaming your boat with drainage. If you go to his Massive thread and check his Index I think you might be able to dig up the pages where it's located. Personally I'm one to agree with foam it, seal it and care for and maintain it and unless the hull is breached and it goes unnoticed, you're probably not gunna have an issue. But everybody knows I'm just an Old Dumb Okie so you might wanna continue to investigate the issue.

 

[kcassells]

From the bottom up happens when there's a breach in the hull and the boat is left moored or slipped and water is allowed to stand in the below deck area and when the boat is trailered and the plug is left in and water is allowed to accumulate in the below deck areas... both of which I consider neglect.
There's also the poorly done foam jobs that have large craters/voids below deck that allow water to collect in little "ponds" below deck this water never evaporates or drains and just sits there year after year saturating the foam. This water usually comes from above deck through weak and worn spots in the deck.
The SOFT spots we see and hear about on all of the rotten boats that come through here are weak/worn spots that water has found a way into and these are "drains" that let water below deck to fill the voids in the foam and fill the below deck area because the plug was left in the boat.
There are lots of ways for a water to enter a boat, but only 2 ways to get rid of it, drain or pump.

Well,
Thanks guys, Jig and Wood,
Both of you. Not sure how to multi-post/respond. I'll look into that further. I definitely see the need for for foam. Also the need for drainage. Putting " taking care of your boat properly" seems to be the odd mix of the two concepts of drainage and foam. I'll look at/dig into OOPS forums. Yes this is probably an infinite scenario for maintainance, flotation and preservation. All of which are my concerns before I put down a floor.
I've also read where guys have put drain holes in there gas tank enclosures but I was under the impression by Coast Gaurd standards that this should be a completely sealed off area. So fuel can't make it's way to the bilge area and a possible explosion. Am I wrong? again?

 

[kcassells]

This has been discussed "Ad Infinitum" here on the forum. Back in the day when "OOPS was a dominant poster he posted what he considered a viable method for foaming your boat with drainage. If you go to his Massive thread and check his Index I think you might be able to dig up the pages where it's located. Personally I'm one to agree with foam it, seal it and care for and maintain it and unless the hull is breached and it goes unnoticed, you're probably not gunna have an issue. But everybody knows I'm just an Old Dumb Okie so you might wanna continue to investigate the issue.

Just noticed I missed your Latin. Very Good!

 

[Scott Danforth]

in my boat, there were about 30 screws thru the wood that encompassed the foam boxes and about another 30 into the transom. It appeared that my boat sat for at least a bit of time with the plug in and about 30 gallons of water (sometime in its history before I bought it) as evidenced from the oil ring on the oil pan.

when I pulled the motor to take care of the moisture, I simply foamed and sealed everything. then I made sure that every screw that I installed was sealed with 5200. If moisture gets into the foam in another 28 years, it will be from the next owners neglect.

foam it, seal it and forget it.

 

[jigngrub]

I've also read where guys have put drain holes in there gas tank enclosures but I was under the impression by Coast Gaurd standards that this should be a completely sealed off area. So fuel can't make it's way to the bilge area and a possible explosion. Am I wrong? again?

That's something an ignoramus would do, and yes the fuel tank coffin needs to be watertight. Drainage should be provided under the coffin, if drainage can't be provided under the coffin everything forward of the tank needs to be foamed solid to displace water.

 

[kcassells]

Thanks guys, Jig and Scott. For WOG: et al. Or et alii.
So the next order of questions I have is;
Should there be air venting permitted into these enclosed areas to reduce mold/mildew?

 

[kcassells]

So I think I'm getting my half head wrapped around it. Foam, no limber drains at all. basically because the pathway for drainage would be engulphed by the foam. No way for any type of drain in the tank area because that would leak to rear could create an explosion if gas were involved.
Now air? In a sealed compartment serves no purpose.
Drainage, foam, gas, mold/mildew...hmmm

 

[jigngrub]

I'm pretty sure that if air can get in, water/moisture can get in and vice versa.

I personal would work on filling the voids below deck completely so as to displace all water. Then seal the top of the deck up completely with no penetrations, thin spots, or weak spots and direct all water to flow across the top of the deck to drain into the bilge area at the stern of the boat to be pumped out... this is the area that needs to be vented.

 

[kcassells]

Ya know what your probably right. I was thinking more so of venting air around the top of the bulkheads to the rear to create an air flow. Newby stuff. But want to do it right the first time.
So kill/fill all the limber holes from front to rear, correct? Of course not in the bilge area/splashwell. below.

 

[Mikeopsycho]

That's something an ignoramus would do, and yes the fuel tank coffin needs to be watertight. Drainage should be provided under the coffin, if drainage can't be provided under the coffin everything forward of the tank needs to be foamed solid to displace water.

Okay, I guess I'm an ignoramus. I have been known to misunderstand what I've read, but I thought I was supposed to provide a way for condensation to drain from the gas tank area. I am foaming everything in except the tank area. I can easily plug the drain tube I had installed if I should. Now you've got me wondering if I made another mistake. Please advise.

Sorry kcassells, I don't mean to highjack your thread, but I don't want to do the wrong thing, especially if it's dangerous.

 

[kcassells]

Okay, I guess I'm an ignoramus. I have been known to misunderstand what I've read, but I thought I was supposed to provide a way for condensation to drain from the gas tank area. I am foaming everything in except the tank area. I can easily plug the drain tube I had installed if I should. Now you've got me wondering if I made another mistake. Please advise.
Sorry kcassells, I don't mean to highjack your thread, but I don't want to do the wrong thing, especially if it's dangerous.

Mike,
I caught your comment earlier but I wanted the powers to be to comment. No...Your not that word at all. Too long to spell anyway. And If it makes you feel any better there are alot of posts thatt say they are doing the same thing. I've been looking into your post and your work looks good. You/me have alot to learn. So thats why we are here. Dang, thunder and a lot of lightening here right now in Pa. so my dogs are going crazy.
BTW... nobody can hijack a thread if the info result is what we need to know. Learning the curves like everyone else.

 

[kcassells]

I'm still dinking that area should have "air" ventilation at the top to alleviate condensation issues. But I'm not sure how that idea will fly. See I'm just proud to be a oakie from mistokie. Ya don't ask, you just won't know.

 

[jc55]

People think that there is some great Mecca of marine engineering that goes into these boats, and that simply doesn't seem to be the case on the things that we rehab here. Many of these older boats are so poorly molded that they have huge voids under the gelcoat, over stressed and underbuilt areas, an inch difference from side to side, out of square, and poor stringer layup over solid wood. Many tri-hulls for instance, have a center stringer that sits in water due to leaking caps and no below deck drainage...poor design. There is always a better way.

I ordered these for deck drains into the bilge and will place them just forward of the scuppers that sit below the water line

. They will also double as ventilation, and drainage for flash storms. I can plug them, and this time around, I'm getting a mooring cover made for the rear deck.

If I were cutting into all of my stringers, I would have pvc limber passages flowing through all compartments and into the bilge. Then I would prevent backflow by keeping them plugged at the bilge. A nice "end of season" maintenance feature for sure. You are simply not going to be able to keep water out of transoms, stringers, foam, and bulkheads. But you can customize your boat to last

I'm a big proponent of inspection hatches. I'm going to be putting a couple more in the helm area of the pilot house. I like knowing what's going on under there.

Trailer boats aren't going to have the same issue as wet slipped, open deck boats IMO.

 

[kcassells]

People think that there is some great Mecca of marine engineering that goes into these boats, and that simply doesn't seem to be the case on the things that we rehab here. Many of these older boats are so poorly molded that they have huge voids under the gelcoat, over stressed and underbuilt areas, an inch difference from side to side, out of square, and poor stringer layup over solid wood. Many tri-hulls for instance, have a center stringer that sits in water due to leaking caps and no below deck drainage...poor design. There is always a better way.
I ordered these for deck drains into the bilge and will place them just forward of the scuppers that sit below the water line

. They will also double as ventilation, and drainage for flash storms. I can plug them, and this time around, I'm getting a mooring cover made for the rear deck.
If I were cutting into all of my stringers, I would have pvc limber passages flowing through all compartments and into the bilge. Then I would prevent backflow by keeping them plugged at the bilge. A nice "end of season" maintenance feature for sure. You are simply not going to be able to keep water out of transoms, stringers, foam, and bulkheads. But you can customize your boat to last
I'm a big proponent of inspection hatches. I'm going to be putting a couple more in the helm area of the pilot house. I like knowing what's going on under there.
Trailer boats aren't going to have the same issue as wet slipped, open deck boats IMO.

Thanks Jc,
Like a thousand other guys/gals....Just wanna do it right the first time. I understand that none of this perfect and just by that fact so then we are able to build better than the facts that were built prior. They lasted along time all by themselves from the factory. Not over-engineering just dinking and dinking. Again, point being if not asked then not answered.
I think a better solution would be to build/place a platform of substrate on an angle just above the limber holes, in each box, foam over that, and thus permitting transfer of water, air to the bilge. Then it is always open and above is protected and the bottom with moisture flows out 247.?
Inspection hatches are a defininite. But not to look at foam. I like your ideas too in regards to deck drainage. Thats the whole point of this rant.

 

[Blazinmonkey]

i would like this gas tank issue to be clear too... my boat was setup with the ski locker to drain in the gas tank compartment then into the bilge... If the tank leaks it will go into the bilge... I have not installed any thing yet (still grinding 95% done) so i could raise the tank let water flow from the ski locker under the gas tank & seal the tank in its own area if that would be better...