plywood question

[fishrdan]

Alumacraft sold a lot of these boats over many years with the same material and it also was not expoy coated.

Not epoxy coated yes, but same material---no....

Most, if not all, aluminum boat manufacture's use CCA treated plywood. (This isn't the ACQ treated plywood that will eat aluminum, and available at the big box stores.) The CCA treating makes the plywood very rot resistant, for many years. CCA treated plywood is hard to find since it's EPA regulated now, so DIY people had to come up with different things to make the wood resist rot: epoxy, poly resin and fiberglass, polyurethane, varnish, paint, chemical treating, etc, etc.

 

[Woodonglass]

This ^^ is true and thus my Old Timers Recipe for sealing plywood. It's very effective and it will seal the wood for a good long time @ about 50% less Costs. Granted it's not as effective as the Modern Resins but for the DIY'r on a budget it's a great alternative. I've used it for Lot's of outdoor projects and found it to be very effective and longlasting.

 

[jigngrub]

Why not just seal the plywood and carpet like you did the Lund? Carpet is easier to install than vinyl is anyway.

I recommend the epoxy with the vinyl because it hardens the surface of the plywood and the vinyl is a thin material, it's very durable... but it is thin.

 

[Woodonglass]

Jig, you may have answered this question in a previous post somewhere and if you have I apologize for not remembering, but for future reference, how many sheets of plywood did you use in your boat and how much epoxy did it take to coat the plywood and how many coats did you use. I believe I remember a reference to 4 coats but I can't remember quantities. I think it would be helpful to have these for Newb's so they'd know what to expect when it comes to purchasing materials etc... You make an excellent point about the Epoxy or any resin for that matter putting a hardened surface on the plywood which adds a protective surface to it and also adds to it's longevity. The Varnish or Polyurethane does that to a very limited extent as well. Thanks for your reply!!!

 

[jigngrub]

Jig, you may have answered this question in a previous post somewhere and if you have I apologize for not remembering, but for future reference, how many sheets of plywood did you use in your boat and how much epoxy did it take to coat the plywood and how many coats did you use. I believe I remember a reference to 4 coats but I can't remember quantities. I think it would be helpful to have these for Newb's so they'd know what to expect when it comes to purchasing materials etc... You make an excellent point about the Epoxy or any resin for that matter putting a hardened surface on the plywood which adds a protective surface to it and also adds to it's longevity. The Varnish or Polyurethane does that to a very limited extent as well. Thanks for your reply!!!

I reused the OEM CCA plywood for my build:
Before sanding the old glue off:

After sanding and 2 coats of epoxy resin:

After 4 coats of epoxy resin:


It looks to be about 4 sheets worth and I used almost all of the USComp. 635 medium half gallon kit ( a little less than $60 with pumps delivered to my door). The kit is more than 1/2 gallon, you get 1/2 gallon of resin and 21 oz. of hardener.

I only coated the top face and edges of my plywood, the back (bottom)has an air space and only touches the framing. If the back had laid directly on the foam I'd have coated it too.

A lot of people say the epoxy is too expensive, but for the job it does it's worth every penny and more. If you're going to spend good money on expensive plywood you might as well give it the best protection.

I think the thing that puts most people off of the epoxy is the 15-20 min. pot life (whether they admit it or not). I did the above epoxy work in 90*+ temps and didn't have any problems with it blowing up on me. The key is to get the epoxy out of the pot and spread thin, the you have double the time to work with it. Even at 90* it still took 8-12 hrs. for the epoxy to cure enough to sand for the next coat. This was my first time using epoxy resin and I will never do any resto work without it.

 

[undone]

My experience, and those of many friends that have had vinyl flooring in their boats over the last 40 plus years is that while it does OK for a while, it does tear, rip, get holes and start to peel. We have redone a couple of boats with vinyl after the original vinyl became to ugly, only to have the new floor do the same thing over time. Now we do use our boats more and harder than most people, but vinyl is not a popular choice around here for a boat that's going to be used and abused. It will hold up to easy use reasonably well though.

One issue with vinyl is that once it does get a hole in it water can leak in and then have no way to escape, so the wood stays wet, that's why most aluminum boats come with treated plywood. While soaking the wood with some type of chemical concoction can help with rot, most require somewhat frequent reapplication for it be effective, this isn't possible with vinyl over it. Epoxy seals it well, and if done correctly will extend the life of the wood a great deal. If using plywood I would rather just use epoxy with a non skid finish though, it's, easy, durable, can be repaired or refinished easily and costs less.

Now most of us use diamond plate aluminum for flooring when we redo a boat, or order it that way when new. It's a one time cost and never needs to be done again, its also lighter in most cases.

 

[jigngrub]

Now most of us use diamond plate aluminum for flooring when we redo a boat, or order it that way when new. It's a one time cost and never needs to be done again, its also lighter in most cases.

Diamond deck is great if you like loud/noisy and blistering hot in the summer and freezing cold in the winter... but it's not for me, I'll take a plywood deck over aluminum any day.

 

[undone]

Not that hot, not that cold. I wear boots in the winter and I think most people do, summer it's barefoot or flip flops, hasn't been a problem, no other part of my body comes in contact with the surface. In a glass boat I would go with glass over something other than wood, like glass over honeycomb or a plywood substitute. My current aluminum jet boat has a honeycomb floor. My glass boats don't have wood in them if I've needed to replace anything.

Most of the negatives of aluminum are greatly over exaggerated, while not as bikini friendly as carpet or a few other things, the durability of it far outweighs the downside. I don't boat for the pleasure of being on a boat, far too many years on the water for another pleasure trip, my boats are used for fishing, transporting camping gear, snorkeling, or something similar

If this was a larger boat where more bare skin may be exposed, a nice cushy surface could make those in skimpy outfits a little more comfortable. but this is small fishing boat that will likely never experience that sort of thing.

 

[bonz_d]

OK, I'm not going to get involved in the debate of what people think is or isn't the best or only way to deck the inside of a boat. That's NOT why I started this thread. If you all want to argue your opinions then start another one. I have been following these forums and contributing what I can for over 6.5 years. I have heard all the arguements. Some have even changed some of my own opinions. What dissatifies me is when some become smug and condesending when others disagree with their opinins.

At the same time if you disagree so strongly with my questions, opinion, or practice then please just don't contribute, because really I don't need anyones attitude.
I'm getting too old and life is getting too short. As and older wiser gentleman recently told me, " I have more days behind me than I have in front of me and I don't need or want anyone attitude!"

Now, thanks everyone for answering my questions and the FREE advice.

 

[jigngrub]

OK, I'm not going to get involved in the debate of what people think is or isn't the best or only way to deck the inside of a boat. That's NOT why I started this thread. If you all want to argue your opinions then start another one. I have been following these forums and contributing what I can for over 6.5 years. I have heard all the arguements. Some have even changed some of my own opinions. What dissatifies me is when some become smug and condesending when others disagree with their opinins.

At the same time if you disagree so strongly with my questions, opinion, or practice then please just don't contribute, because really I don't need anyones attitude.
I'm getting too old and life is getting too short. As and older wiser gentleman recently told me, " I have more days behind me than I have in front of me and I don't need or want anyone attitude!"

Now, thanks everyone for answering my questions and the FREE advice.

What did you expect? Someone would come on here and tell you exactly what you wanted to hear and then that would be it? Or maybe everyone would tell you what you want to hear and then this thread would slowly fade into the sunset?

You got to expect these kind of discussions when you open a topic on a public forum, this isn't just for you, it helps the newbs too.

You still haven't answered my question about why don't you just seal and carpet the plywood in this boat like you did in your Lund... especially if it still looks like new, you must have some mad carpet skills because I can't even get factory carpet to last more than 6 or 7 years and it starts looking ratty after 4 or 5 years.

 

[bonz_d]

1. The questions I asked were not that difficult and quite straight forward. They were answered and for that I am appreciative! Yet this has gotten off topic on a number of occasions. With other questions that have no bearing on the original question.

2. No I DON'T have to expect the types of discussions that have followed. Again they have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Yes this is a public forum and if anyone wants to have that discussion they are free to start a new topic! Then if someone wants to repsond to an opinion that they do not agree with, with sarcasm then that dosen't further anyone but the person responding with the sarcasm.

3. I did respond to that issue, you must have missed it! But I will reiterate. There is a portion of the decking that is covered by other structures and does not dry out. Therefore I do not want to put carpet back under it. Yet I don't understand your question and difficulty with carpet as in one of your sarcastic statements, post 43, "carpet is much easier to install than vinyl anyways."

Sorry if you feel offended but your sarcam and the condescending tone gets old and tiring after awhile.

 

[undone]

Back to the first post then.


1/2" works fine unless you are very heavy.

More plies means stiffer and typically stronger.

If used correctly each one can work.

Coat it (both sides) with epoxy to ensure it starts out as waterproof and durable as you can get it.

Vinyl will work fine in a low to medium stress application.

Every step down in product or technique increases the chance of a shorter lifespan of the materials.

 

[jigngrub]

Yet I don't understand your question and difficulty with carpet as in one of your sarcastic statements, post 43, "carpet is much easier to install than vinyl anyways."

Sorry if you feel offended but your sarcam and the condescending tone gets old and tiring after awhile.

That was not sarcasm, and you'll find that out when you install the vinyl... if you install vinyl. Carpet is much more forgiving and hides mistakes and imperfections... vinyl, not so much.

You ask for advice, but discount or ignore good advice when it's given to you. Sealing your decking with epoxy resin will be a huge help in protecting your decking under the structures where nothing dries out. It's too bad you don't understand that.

 

[bonz_d]

That was not sarcasm, and you'll find that out when you install the vinyl... if you install vinyl. Carpet is much more forgiving and hides mistakes and imperfections... vinyl, not so much.

You ask for advice, but discount or ignore good advice when it's given to you. Sealing your decking with epoxy resin will be a huge help in protecting your decking under the structures where nothing dries out. It's too bad you don't understand that.

What I understand is that is the position you preach constantly, though I disagree with it. If that is the end all be all then why are there so many posted that you yourself respond to that all old glass boats will have all rotten wood? All of that wood is encased in nore than just a couple coats of resin!? Also where in this topic did I ever ask what to coat the wood with other than when I reponded that I was going to try WOG recipe?

 

[jigngrub]

It's your boat, build it the way you want... I was just trying to help.

Some people just have to learn the hard way, I know I did and I was trying to spare you from some of that... but go ahead and find out for yourself.

The fiberglass boats use polyester resin (not epoxy) and the below deck workmanship is more often shoddy than not. The boats are neglected and exposed to the elements, wrap all that up into a ball and then look at any fiberglass boat resto thread and you'll understand.

 

[bonz_d]

Some people just have to learn the hard way, I know I did and I was trying to spare you from some of that... but go ahead and find out for yourself.

.

Yes there are and yes some do. Still doesn't make it your place to judge them for it on an open forum. Which you have many times over the years.I will PM you, you can respond or not.

 

[bonz_d]

So, this topic originally started with a question about buying plywood which is convienantly located new by, it has since morphed into something completely different.

Also since I was politely told I really need to do more research on this OTHER topic, yesterday being a foul weather day I did just that. It was very educational and suprising at the same time. As suggested my 1st search was "boiled linseed oil" to which I found many good pages on the internet to read. My 2nd search was "sealing plywood", again many good pages that linked to many more good pages which also linked to some actual products. My 3rd search was just plywood and my 4th search was plywood in boats. These searches brought me to a number of wood boat building a repair forums. Again filled with a lot of useful, valueable information. Some of that information by people who do it professionally for a living.

The 1st thing I learned during that search is that plywood is not a very good material to use in boats only for that fact that it readily absorbs water and is near impossible to truely seal it, espeacially any edges or holes.

One of those sites I visited was rotdoctor.com and a product called CPES, Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer. Looks like good stuff, then when you read further it is stated that a respirator and organic vapor filters are needed to use this stuff. OH Boy fun!!!! It is sold in 3 sizes, 2 pt, 2qt and 2 gal.
Coverage on the best case for clean sanded "Hardwood" is 1 gal for 300 sq. ft., otherwise 100 -200 sq. ft. on "other" woods or as little as 100 sq. ft. on rough or porous woods.

Another site I visited, epoxyproducts.com had a page were they did a whole lot of extensive testing using different methods to seal wood and then submerging it and then test weighting it to determine how much water it absorbed. I was amazed. By their testing one would find that encapsulating wood in epoxy isn't as water tight as one might think. Actually by their tests there were other methods that worked even better! But then you can go to that page and read it for yourself.

Now I am not a professional by any means nor have I ever claimed to be. Though again after reading some of the wood boat forums where there are professionals it seems as though even they cannot agree on the best or surest way to seal plywood. But I sure have learned quite a bit about expoy and wood and sealing it.

So whatever trips your trigger or makes you feel confident in the work you are going to do then do it but you won't find me arguing it with you no matter which method you decide to use. Because even the professionals can't agree!

 

[fishrdan]

Because even the professionals can't agree!

True.

Here's one aspect I don't think you have looked into yet, and that is,,, sealing wood to protect it VS chemical treating unsealed wood.

In a perfect world, sealing would be best as moisture can't get in to rot the wood. This requires the wood to be 100% encapsulated: edges, holes, cracks, splits, etc.. But, this isn't a perfect world and just 1 small imperfection in the encapsulation and the rot begins. Now here's the kicker, if moisture gets into the wood, the encapsulating material holds moisture in,,,, and accelerates the rot.


On the other hand, if the wood isn't sealed it will eventually dry out,,, dry wood doesn't rot. But raw wood (most) will rot due to moisture, so it needs to be chemically treated,,,, so it doesn't rot while wet. Once chemically treated the wood is very rot resistant and can withstand getting wet and drying out. This is why aluminum boat manufacturers use unsealed CCA treated plywood; cheap easy and rot resistant. The problem with CCA treated plywood, it's hard to find and/or expensive to ship.

I chose to treat my doug fir marine plywood with a borax/antifreeze solution. I wasn't 100% convinced this would work so I also treated it with Jasco Termin8. I live in the desert, so the wood will dry out when it gets wet.

More food for thought... Eh?

 

[bonz_d]

True.

Here's one aspect I don't think you have looked into yet, and that is,,, sealing wood to protect it VS chemical treating unsealed wood.

In a perfect world, sealing would be best as moisture can't get in to rot the wood. This requires the wood to be 100% encapsulated: edges, holes, cracks, splits, etc.. But, this isn't a perfect world and just 1 small imperfection in the encapsulation and the rot begins. Now here's the kicker, if moisture gets into the wood, the encapsulating material holds moisture in,,,, and accelerates the rot.


On the other hand, if the wood isn't sealed it will eventually dry out,,, dry wood doesn't rot. But raw wood (most) will rot due to moisture, so it needs to be chemically treated,,,, so it doesn't rot while wet. Once chemically treated the wood is very rot resistant and can withstand getting wet and drying out. This is why aluminum boat manufacturers use unsealed CCA treated plywood; cheap easy and rot resistant. The problem with CCA treated plywood, it's hard to find and/or expensive to ship.


More food for thought... Eh?

Actually I have become more aware of this and located a supplier in Ohio for CCA Fir, also a supplier right here in Milwaukee for AB Fir marine ply. Between the 2 of them the CCA is about $30.00 a sheet cheaper until one adds in shipping costs. May have to look closer at the marine ply Menards is carrying.

So for now I think I've decided to hold off for a bit, about 6-8 weeks of good fishing left before I'll put it away for the season. Then I'll start by stripping it all out. In the mean time I will start collecting supplies and materials.

 

[Woodonglass]

Treating plywood After the fact IS an issue due to the resin between the laminations. That's why I say to pay Close attention to the edges when uisng the Old Timers recipe. With any wood Treating,Encapsulation and the ultimate Maintenance and Care all Play a part in the overall life of the wood. I'm sure what ever direction you choose to go, you'll eventually find the solution you can live and be happy with. I'm pullin for ya!!!