68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

[Lt. Dan]

I acquired this boat from the 2nd owner after it was sold with a lake house in North Alabama where it went brand new remaining there until sometime in the 2010 months when it was brought to Baton Rouge by the son of the new home owner. The boat was quite complete with typically deteriorated upholstery, bad plexi, sliding top laying upside down within the boat and a blown out albeit "blue goo substance" patch on the lower unit. The last registration was 2000 in Alabama.

This is how it looked when acquired:

 

[Lt. Dan]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Since I have been off work since 12/31, I decided that starting the rebuild process beat boredom 9 ways to hades & back.

I began by assessing the overall condition finding the typical saturated foam, cobbled up wiring via additions of lights & depth sounders, fish finders (never once has it said they are all at the fish market), light switches, you name it somebody tied it to the existing harness by bread tie, tie wrap, duct tape, electrical tape and the nicest looking twist ties I have ever seen on a multi wired bilge pump no less. There were holes drilled in the transom where attachments were made using wood screws no less, holes measuring roughly 1/2" filled with silicone sealant to fill the gap necessary for a 16ga wire to pass. What was left of the wood screws in the transom will be forever buried by glass & gel-coat as an iron deposit.

The tie downs, outdrive, under deck ledge were all smeared with multiple tubes of household bathroom caulking to stem the flow of water intrusion as opposed to a replacement gasket here and there. The fuel tank had rusted through the lower seam letting all the 14 yr. old fuel leach into the water saturated foam below the engine pad. NASTY STUFF!

6 Days & 12 39gallon garbage bags later, I hauled out 302 lbs. of saturated floatation foam that was 46 yrs. old when it was put to the curb. The testament to the boat quality is the single centerline stringer which was still capable of supporting the floor in at least 60% of its length. Bravo AristoCraft.

Normal stress cracking of the gel coat coupled to a few dock dents in the rub rail were found but overall the hull and deck are strong, no sponginess or glass fractures anywhere on the hull or deck. After I pulled the engine & transom assembly I found some water intrusion had disrupted the through hull for the outdrive which will require some repair but not a transom replacement. Can you spell RELIEF?

More to say back after another BOSS MISSION.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Normal stress cracking of the gel coat coupled to a few dock dents in the rub rail were found but overall the hull and deck are strong, no sponginess or glass fractures anywhere on the hull or deck. After I pulled the engine & transom assembly I found some water intrusion had disrupted the through hull for the outdrive which will require some repair but not a transom replacement. Can you spell RELIEF?

More to say back after another BOSS MISSION.

Not quite sure I understand this. How can you do a partial repair to the "Transom Assembly". What is the "Transom Assembly" you're referencing? IMHO you would be best served to drill core samples of the entire transom to ensure it's soundness. Your description leads me to believe it may not be as good as you think. Drilling core samples will give you a much better "Look and Feel" of what's going on inside the core. If all is well and good, some 3M 5200 will fill the holes and you're back ready to go, no harm done.

 

[Lt. Dan]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

So on to the now... then to the plans as they have evolved recently.

My background is roughly comprised of 35 marvelous years in the retail car business service sector so I have vast experience in solving problems, building mechanical wonders, giving blood and sleeping on a creeper and tonnage of quality tools with which to build things. In these things my brain never sleeps and it sometimes produces a monster...like what is about to occur.

I hate clutter as you can see all has been removed from the transom in preparation for filling and painting. The remainder of the boat will be DE cluttered as well.

After removal of the engine pad as my arms are not NBA length for foam removal, I picked up that evil instrument known as a tape measure, this tool has created more unnecessary work to fit things than any other in a tool box and it begins.
There is enough room for a 4.3 V6. Mercruiser has a nice package deal available in the form of a MPI 220 hp/Alpha Gen II which includes the sensors, wiring and control unit. So I started checking specs of this particular setup finding it weighed over 1200 lbs. complete. Now while that is not bad enough, 18 gallons would be about enough fuel for a couple easy hours and that is not acceptable so a larger cell is required which is not an issue excepting weight which is. Scratch the 4.3 & Alpha pkg.

I have built many hotrods both foreign and domestic my favorite of all were the V8 240Z's. Aha! LT-1 SB time? Nope too heavy and adding a Bravo just increased the weight. But while researching I came across the Gen III LS series motors which are ALUMINUM block and heads weighing in dry @ approx. 457.6 lbs. producing 285-310 hp to sky high horsepower & torq numbers. The junk yards are full of them having been produced since 1998 in the configuration I want. Several sell them complete including injection harness & ECM (which by the way is compatible with the Mercruiser brain) and a trans which is always re-sellable lowering the cost. Now I'm on the hunt. This motor has the same bell housing all GM motors have used for years, allowing any of the various transom assembly's used for GM V8's in the past to connect right up. The dilemma, I feel 285 hp is plenty for this boat and it's size, regardless of it's near 2000lb weight is should be peppy on the water. The original MC-1 will not survive the load, it's out, I understand the Alpha 1 Gen II is limited to 60 mph or 300 hp before it begins to fail or exceeds it's warranty parameters if it fails so I'm back to the Bravo 1. Enter Tony, builder of serious high speed boats, he gave me a Bravo 1 from a boat he repowered with 850 hp motors.

So that's the plan, LS1 (285-310 hp), Bravo 1, fuel injection, 29 gallon center line fuel cell just behind amidships, 21 gallon v shaped front feeder tank under the foot well area both permanent mounted under floor. Livorsi single shifter with trim, eliminating the rather large trim buttons on the dash (remember the clutter statement). LED lighting both navigational & courtesy interior and yes the most evil of all inclusions AIR CONDITIONING ( thanks again to a buddy working @ Hinckley Yachts for the cooling coil) , for the long waits dock side to trailer the boat out.

The color will be changed to a bright white gel-coat with slight red trim and a red vinyl sliding hard top. That's the plan and I plan not to change it. Thanks for your indulgence. More as progress takes place.

 

[Lt. Dan]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Exactly what I did as well as a bit of sonic testing and visual with a small scope. The transom assembly is what I have been told is the proper name for the interior steering and pump mount which bolts to the gimbal housing inside the transom.
The one thing I have found over many years of restorations is to be accurate in the diagnosis but keep the repair straight forward and simple as possible.
In this design the transom "pad" if you will is 3 layers of fiberglass sandwiching 3 layers of balsa core measuring 2' by 4' covered with heavy weave which is very much intact. The drive assembly passes directly through the center of this beefy pad. This lays on top & in the center of the entire transom beam to beam and appears by camera to be isolated from the typical single sized transom. In this case it appears the minor rot is limited to the pad driveline opening by 1.5" along the port side of the cutout near the lower edge where evidence was visible on the gimbal housing via damaged rubber seal & corrosion.
I could replace the transom as necessary but in this case there is no need to do so.

 

[jbcurt00]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

I've never done an I/O transom, but have seen many done. None appeared or seemed to be assembled as you describe the existing transom assembly.

Aristocrats may have been put together slightly different then others, but I can normally follow what someone is describing. The what & the how it's put together.

I have no idea what most of your description describes. Sorry.

Exactly what I did as well as a bit of sonic testing and visual with a small scope. The transom assembly is what I have been told is the proper name for the interior steering and pump mount which bolts to the gimbal housing inside the transom.
The one thing I have found over many years of restorations is to be accurate in the diagnosis but keep the repair straight forward and simple as possible.
In this design the transom "pad" if you will is 3 layers of fiberglass sandwiching 3 layers of balsa core measuring 2' by 4' covered with heavy weave which is very much intact. The drive assembly passes directly through the center of this beefy pad. This lays on top & in the center of the entire transom beam to beam and appears by camera to be isolated from the typical single sized transom. In this case it appears the minor rot is limited to the pad driveline opening by 1.5" along the port side of the cutout near the lower edge where evidence was visible on the gimbal housing via damaged rubber seal & corrosion.
I could replace the transom as necessary but in this case there is no need to do so.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

I agree^^^. No idea. I found this thread from 2010 that shows how this member rebuilt is 8teen. http://forums.iboats.com/aristocraft/1968-8-teen-project-382014-3.html
It appears your transom is an end grain balsa Cored Transom. Very unusual. Glastron made some of these as well. Where is the water intrusion damage that you have discovered?

 

[MikDee]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

That boat is a Classic Beauty!

 

[Lt. Dan]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

It's actually simple to understand. 1. The sonic testing is a common test measure performed by marine surveyors on boats during the integrity test. I did this first across the entire spectrum of the boat, hull, freeboard, transom & deck plate. No problem found, I then measured the thickness of the gel coat on the transom via existing drilled holes across the structure which established an approx. thickness over all, then for safety removed .0001 and applied the new length to a drill bit stop thereby preventing yet another hole through the gel coat while drilling strategically located inspection holes inside the engine bay through the glass mat to further check for transom deterioration in the mid and lower areas with a visual scope we use to look into engines w/o taking them apart for damage & wear; again no problem found. Both of these tools are used in the survey process within the maritime industry & composite aerospace industry. I have several boat building buddies and again, I have tools past the scope of wrenches, sockets and screw drivers.

While balsa was used though not extensively in the industry in the 60's it appears AristoCraft utilized balsa very effectively with the design/build they used in this boats transom. Elsewhere in this forum is a photo of this "essential central pad" through which the driveline passes, look for the photo if you have a mind to and you will see clearly what I am referring too.

As I grew up sailing, our repairs on various boats did not include transom work. It did however include proper survey techniques to ensure hull integrity, center board attachment points, rudder attachment points, mast step attachment points; the transom does not know it's a transom, the same techniques apply to ensure integrity. The deterioration as seen in the photo resides along the lower edge of the cutout and extend inward approx. 3/4 of an inch decreasing while passing upwards towards the top of the cutout to a point just under midway where there is no deterioration of transom integrity. The same photo shows the gimbal housing beneath the keel where water intrusion occurred passing the original gasket and entering the transom core leaving obvious corrosion on the drive unit housing. This is the reasoning behind not replacing the entire transom, it's not necessary with a semi-circle extending no deeper than 3/4" into the transom pad core. What is planned is this; removal of the rotted albeit dry balsa material to 1" and insertion of composite polymer honeycomb material used in the aerospace industry followed by a polymer adhesive also utilized in composite aircraft construction to refill and strengthen the void. The end result will be a superior repair, strength and flexibility not capable with fiberglass, balsa & epoxy resins.

As I stated earlier I plan to install a higher horsepower drivetrain than was available in the 60's. This hull design, AristoCraft's build quality of the 8-Teen will allow this to be a safe powerful & fun ride, in fact a marine sleeper if you will. I realize you traditional guys are craftsman of a different sort, I prefer modification with newer technology which will ensure safety & efficiency while retaining the old style charm designed into the product. I have access to technology and specialization that many do not with close friends & brothers in the aerospace industry, composite design and manufacturing, tool engineering the list goes on. I use this expertise & material on projects as do my buddies, no offense to you other old guys, but this old guy stayed with technology enjoying the subtle changes applied to yesterday's classic & beautiful designs. This boat will be quite, fast & efficient like the cars I build, old skin, up to date technology with safety first and foremost.

 

[jbcurt00]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Well ok ^^^, but your expertise & plan were never in question, it was your description of how the boat was apparently built (balsa core transom, who'd have thunk it<<<< That's why I asked) and the way you described your intended plans that was hard to follow.

I'm not a rocket scientist nor do I play one on TV. But if not for others to follow & learn, what's the point of having all these threads cataloged & saved? This is a learning place, typically for both those that start a resto thread & for those that follow the work as it progresses.

Continue to post pix of your boat and your work on it, someone that follows you or I here, might find it useful resource. My questions weren't meant to discourage you or insist you rebuild the boat in any certain way, other then w/ a nod to safety. While doing both the resto work & to create a safe boat once finished.

Aristocrafts are built differently below decks as well, w/ out wood-core stringers, so you won't be replacing any rotten stringers.

Sounds like you'll have the most expensively done 8-teen afloat, if that's what your after, great. But, IMO, it won't be better solely because of your choice of materials, or because you've done a custom rehab rather then a restore.

Fortunately, this is all just my opinion, and as it's your boat, time, effort & money, you can rebuild it as you see fit.

BTW: It's good to have great friends that give generously of their time & knowledge. Most here can do that too, if you let them. Access to low cost materials (esp typically expensive, non-traditional ones) is also great.

Best of luck w/ your project

 

[briangcc]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Anyone else pick up that he's grabbing a LS1 from an auto junkyard and tossing it into a boat? With A/C?

Call me silly but aren't the internals between a car/truck engine and a boat engine vastly different due to the boat being under a constant load and a car/truck being able to coast downhill? And aren't the ignition and alternators sealed from explosion in a marine application? Any idea on whether that A/C compressor is sealed electrically to avoid causing an explosion as well?

Something to consider if you're expecting to just pull an engine from a wrecked GM vehicle and drop it right into your boat. Not trying to be a downer here, just trying to make sure you're aware there's a lot more that has to go into this decision and by the time you're done getting the LS1 up to the task of surviving in a marine environment, your original Mercruiser plan may be cheaper.


**No expert here but I have read a thing or two which does make me dangerous...

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Yeah, ^^^, but I'm sure his buddies know all about how to convert a car motor into a marine motor.

 

[Lt. Dan]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

The reality concerning the load myth is this, a car operating with a 4 speed automatic via lock-up torque convertor rolls down the highway for absolute hours in a cross country run in the 2800-3500 rpm range (depending on final drive ratio) generally with climate control on and weight in the car. While passing it is not unusual to exceed 4000 rpm for a distance, like getting a skier up at which time the throttle is backed down a tad...there is no difference excepting the car dependent upon final drive ratio is actually operating under a higher load for a longer period of time than most pleasure boats operate based upon unsprung weight, rotational mass & leaching of power for accessory drives.

The LS series aluminum V8 is rapidly replacing the old version small & big block GM engines based on their power to weight ratio. These engine are lightweight and robust, with things like 6 bolt main caps, forged steel cranks with external balancing. With power being produced from LS1 285 - to LS7 750hp on stock internals, it's the marine engine of the future with dry weights under 500 pounds.

With the exception of rotation, cam spec for power band the past GM motors are basically identical to those used in autos. The LS series has no issue with power band which is basically linear throughout the useable RPM range which in some cases exceeds 7000 rpm. This makes it a perfect choice for a boat. By running the LS with a closed cooling system, the multi-port fuel injection system works correctly, coolant temperature can be tuned via thermostat to the various sensors used to control the efficiency of the engine & while the o2 sensors both up and downstream of the cats can not be used their feeds to the control unit are based on oscillating milliamps which can be inserted artificially without issue. Mercruiser uses a weather proof version of this automotive control unit in their MPI engines currently.

There have always been aircraft engines in boats (Allison in the Waco PT's as well as 427 truck steering motors) car engines in boats, Olds 455 with Berkeley pumps & cassell V drives, 351 Cleveland's in ski boats and on and on. So it's far from a novel idea, with hundreds of boats already using them in both single & double configurations.

So with shielded starters & alternators available, brass freeze plugs for confidence, fuel injection for safety and efficiency, it will work well.

I enjoy this forum, this is where I looked and found the AristoCraft models in photos in particular the "lime green" 19 is what created the desire to locate an AristoCraft in the 1st place. When I realized a friend had one, I scooped it and the rest is becoming history. The forum has provided valuable information on how to, thoughts (even opposing views) on techniques tried & true. When I'm not engaged in oil & gas mineral ownership analysis you can bet it's a car or boat that's being changed into what I want.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

This is NOT from me but from an "Old Guy" marine mechanic...
"Ok, here goes. First let me say I am a marine mechanic. You can use a car engine in a boat, but it won`t last long. Pay attention now, there will be a quiz later. A marine engine has a stainless head gasket. Raw water will rust yours out. Marine engines have different cams, they perform from idle up, a car starts making power around 2 grand. A boat has different pistons, they have more silicone as not to expand as much due to long periods at high rpms. Electronics are sealed cause the spark factor. Exhaust is water cooled so you don`t burn up your boat. Now, think of this: A boat is on 80% load 90% of the time, a car is on 20% load 90% of the time. A car will never run wide open all day, yet a boat will. It`s all cause of the above." Quiz: Do you really want to use a Car engine in a Boat?

 

[briangcc]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

One more silly question then I'll go sit in my corner

Since this boat didn't come with a LS1 originally, and is now being repowered with one, doesn't it now need to meet the current emissions standards which would include the addition of catalytic convertors?

I know in the automobile world, that you do need to do this especially when retrofitting a newer engine into an older car. One instance I can think of right off the top of my head is if you tossed the same LS1 into my '78 Trans Am. Instantly I'd be required to meet all smog requirements and be subject to emissions testing. Year One had to do that with their Bandits they're offering as they're dropping LS1/6's into those same Trans Ams. At least this is the case for NY and I know CA, possibly others.

 

[greenbush future]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Regardless of which way the owner of this very nice boat chooses to go, we will require many more pictures to see how she come's along. One of my fishing buddies found this same model boat up here in Michigan and bought it for pennies, and it's pretty unmolested and clean. He has no idea what he has IMO.
I have no interest in the car/marine power plant debate, but Alum, blocks are very pricey, marine engines are equally or even more pricey. All of it is very cool, I hope to learn watching this one come together. Good luck Lt. Dan!!!

 

[Lt. Dan]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

I have a home in Florida, Louisiana & Houston, none of these states comes close to resembling California and their idiotic asinine requirements therefore I would not even attempt to solve a dilemma whereby water flows through a convertor honeycomb as it passes an immersed electrical sensor like an oxygen sensor which produces an electrical current via heat?
I put them on my hot rods as they actually help performance are very free flowing and it prevents problems in the engine management system. On the LS1 in the boat these measurements made by the upstream & downstream sensors can be artificially input electronically to help the control unit manage the air/fuel ratio under and during all power ranges.
Think we be safe.

 

[greenbush future]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

One more silly question then I'll go sit in my corner

Since this boat didn't come with a LS1 originally, and is now being repowered with one, doesn't it now need to meet the current emissions standards which would include the addition of catalytic convertors?

I know in the automobile world, that you do need to do this especially when retrofitting a newer engine into an older car. One instance I can think of right off the top of my head is if you tossed the same LS1 into my '78 Trans Am. Instantly I'd be required to meet all smog requirements and be subject to emissions testing. Year One had to do that with their Bandits they're offering as they're dropping LS1/6's into those same Trans Ams. At least this is the case for NY and I know CA, possibly others.

Not in MI it isn't this way, I will bet it's very different from state to state. I could see Cali. having goofy rules as you describe, but I can slap 6 V-8's in a hot rod and go get plates tomorrow. Heck we have 0 inspections here to licence a vehicle for a the road, same applies to water here.

 

[81 Checkmate]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

One more silly question then I'll go sit in my corner

Since this boat didn't come with a LS1 originally, and is now being repowered with one, doesn't it now need to meet the current emissions standards which would include the addition of catalytic convertors?

I know in the automobile world, that you do need to do this especially when retrofitting a newer engine into an older car. One instance I can think of right off the top of my head is if you tossed the same LS1 into my '78 Trans Am. Instantly I'd be required to meet all smog requirements and be subject to emissions testing. Year One had to do that with their Bandits they're offering as they're dropping LS1/6's into those same Trans Ams. At least this is the case for NY and I know CA, possibly others.

What i just read on the internet...becouse the internet has everything.

We are told by John McKnight, Director, Environmental & Safety Compliance for the NMMA, that all 2010 stern drive and inboard gas engines will have to be EPA emissions compliant. He said the operative phrase here is ?engine model year? not the ?boat model year.? So that means, as we understand it, that engines made in 2009 which go into 2010 boat models will not be required to have the catalytic converters.

McKnight said that if there are 2009 engines in the distribution pipeline without catalytic converters after January 1, 2010, that is all right so long as the engine companies start installing them with their 2010 engine models

So im thinking if it's a 2009 and under motor....that he will not need the converters........

 

[Lt. Dan]

Re: 68 AristoCraft 8-teen off and running

Old Guy marine mechanics forgot about them. Went to by a Holley rebuild kit for a 780 cfm. double pumper. The marine rebuild kit has a different design power valve & accelerator pump assembly's, he pulled the parts kit, asked what type of boat it was going on, I told him I was using it on a LT-1 powered 70 Nova SS, he pulled the part back telling me it was against the law to put marine parts on cars, federal law no less and he wasn't selling it any yea-hoos. That was a shocker, my brother and I walked out laughing, what you going to do with old mechanics?
Never seen anything but multi layer steel cylinder head gaskets which are commonly used on performance street motors and boosted engines, as far as extra impregnated silicone in pistons I doubt this and will research the validity of the statement. Mercruiser used the process on the large bore racing motors piston BORES based on a process developed in 1967 by Mahle allowing aluminum pistons and aluminum sleeves or aluminum blocks to attain tighter tolerances between the piston & the bore However, the sulfur found in much of the low-quality gasoline caused some Nikasil cylinders to break down over time, causing costly engine failures. Inquire @ your local BMW dealer about that debacle.

I did recognize and said I believe that the cam profiles could be different and were different in some applications, this is not necessary in the LS series engines which develop torque tipping off idle; peak torque is developed @ 4900 rpm measuring 345 lb. ft. which is a scant 400 rpm above the WOT max of the 2.5 120hp while attaining peak power of 353 @ 5200 rpm. The cam in this case is not an issue. The head gaskets are MLS as well had they not been I would have added them during the soft rebuild.

I said Mercruiser is using the automotive engine management system albeit in a water proof case, not because diodes, chips and resistors spark, because water and electronics do not mix well, same reason the connections on the various sensors are weather-packs from the automotive industry suppliers, keeps moisture out.

Based on the power to weight ratio, final drive ratio of the Bravo 1 (with the correct prop size and pitch), I believe this boat will cruise all day long easily @ 60mph turning 2800-3200 rpm on plane which works out to 46-53% load on the drivetrain. There will be no 80% load 90% of the time, somebody can't build an efficient powertrain if this is the case.

BTW the old mechanic guy needs to watch some real auto racing like Formula one, or the Grand Prix bikes where the norm is 100% load 100% of the time for as long as 24 hours without glitching. Love new technology, offshore unlimited are another 100/100 using highly built automotive derived big block tall deck aluminum motors running superchargers on each bank of pistons.

And Yes, not only do I want to use this series car engine in a boat, I do believe I'll do a few more and sell them when I finish this one, I'm already looking for a few more derelict 8-Teens to modify.

I like this forum...really

p.s one that runs 100% 100% of the time except when docking or no wake zones, splashed in 2002 having replaced one lower unit for a failed prop shaft, lost a $2500 lab prop as well, otherwise, tune-ups and seals

Belongs to one of the pals, the tool engineer