Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

[CWKboat]

Hi, I have a 2001 Larson 210 OB (outboard set up) with the VEC hull. The transon has numerous spider cracks in the gel coat around the motor mount area, and after the last trip out, I noticed a 1-2 inch crack in the top of the transom cap. The transom also flexes now. So, I'm grounding it until I can figure out the best course of action. In reading up, I found that this was a common issue apparently on early VEC hulls, and that Larson discontinued the outboard models several years back.

I doubt if rot is going to be the issue with a composite hull and only 10 years old, it sounds like the hull was just not set up well originally to handle the stresses of a V-6 outboard. My initial thoughts are to use Seacast and pour a new transom. With VEC hulls, was the original transom poured or "injected?"

Just wondering about what's in there, and if the Seacast would be likely to bond to it so as to maybe avoid having to remove all of the core material, and just focus on removing the cracked area and then reinforcing?

(I have not taken the cap off yet)

Thanks for any thoughts..

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

I spent a good deal of time in that plant in 2002, but they were only building I/O's at that time, at least while I was there. Just pull out a screw or bolt going through the transom and you'll know in minutes what the core is. Until then you won't know what your options are.

 

[CWKboat]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

I spent a good deal of time in that plant in 2002, but they were only building I/O's at that time, at least while I was there. Just pull out a screw or bolt going through the transom and you'll know in minutes what the core is. Until then you won't know what your options are.

My mistake, it actually is a 2002 Larson 210 OB model. 20 ft 6 inches. I have seen through the holes before as I mounted the jackplate and engine, but I probably wasn't sure what exactly I was looking at. If I remember it almost looked liked some type of composite wood, but can't remember exactly. It was dry though at the time this past spring.

 

[CWKboat]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

I spent a good deal of time in that plant in 2002, but they were only building I/O's at that time, at least while I was there. Just pull out a screw or bolt going through the transom and you'll know in minutes what the core is. Until then you won't know what your options are.

It's this model here:

http://features.boats.com/boat-cont...ers-outboard-powered-runabouts-for-2002-5281/

 

[oops!]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

I spent a good deal of time in that plant in 2002, but they were only building I/O's at that time, at least while I was there. Just pull out a screw or bolt going through the transom and you'll know in minutes what the core is. Until then you won't know what your options are.

if you have time?........perhaps you could enlighten the forum on VEC technology and why the builders went to it......the idea behind it.
im sure it would clear up a lot of misconceptions.

we all think its the greatest thing since sliced bread......but i don't think the consumers were supposed to be the winners with this building process.....lol

 

[oops!]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

Hi, I have a 2001 Larson 210 OB (outboard set up) with the VEC hull. The transon has numerous spider cracks in the gel coat around the motor mount area, and after the last trip out, I noticed a 1-2 inch crack in the top of the transom cap. The transom also flexes now.

Thanks for any thoughts..

imho.......the larsons really have problems with appling the gellcoat......too thick or too thin....im not sure......but it is prone to spider cracks....i have fixed a lot of larsone recently...and just about all that i have seen from 7 years older are crazing.....(no all, but a good chunk of them)

with the transom flex......this isnt your issue.....but just understand that you will see more crazing on that boat as compaired to the rest

 

[CWKboat]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

imho.......the larsons really have problems with appling the gellcoat......too thick or too thin....im not sure......but it is prone to spider cracks....i have fixed a lot of larsone recently...and just about all that i have seen from 7 years older are crazing.....(no all, but a good chunk of them)

with the transom flex......this isnt your issue.....but just understand that you will see more crazing on that boat as compaired to the rest

Oops,

Any idea what the transom core material on a VEC would be? Do you think I'm better off staying composite with something pourable like Seacast as there is no wood in the existing design? The boat does have a fair amount of crazing that you described in different places. I got it cheap, and I'm thinking it's worth fixing, just want to do it right. The floor and and stringers seem solid. I can live with the aesthetics of the spider cracks, just want to figure out the most advisable way to go about repairing the transom.

 

[oops!]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

could be any thing......like ondarvr said......take out a bolt or screw from the transom....... then push the bolt or screw back in till some of the shavings rub off on the threads.....

look at the shavings......if its grey and really itchy.....its a composite.......wood is wood.....

but if the transom is failing......its more than likely wood......a composite wont fail with flex....

you could go seacast.....but i like the tried and true methods....more work......but in the end....i know it will hold

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

if you have time?........perhaps you could enlighten the forum on VEC technology and why the builders went to it......the idea behind it.
im sure it would clear up a lot of misconceptions.

we all think its the greatest thing since sliced bread......but i don't think the consumers were supposed to be the winners with this building process.....lol

I can't really say much about it, I was there to audit the entire FRP production process and needed to sign a non disclosure agreement.

I can say the VEC hulls used pre-formed fiberglass stringer systems with a full fiberglass liner over them. I didn?t see any O/B models being made, only I/Os , so I don?t know what was used in the transom.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

This might help some to understand the VEC system ..

http://www.boattest.com/Partners/Partner-Main.aspx?lp_id=47&t=VLIBRARY&Videoid=2192&p=0&s

YD.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

That video will give you a good idea of the process.

 

[CWKboat]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

could be any thing......like ondarvr said......take out a bolt or screw from the transom....... then push the bolt or screw back in till some of the shavings rub off on the threads.....

look at the shavings......if its grey and really itchy.....its a composite.......wood is wood.....

but if the transom is failing......its more than likely wood......a composite wont fail with flex....

you could go seacast.....but i like the tried and true methods....more work......but in the end....i know it will hold

From the video kindly posted by YachtDr, they said the construction is wood free. My transom developed a crack on the top of the splashwell cover right in the center point of the jack plate. It also pulled the angle iron back and out of the screw hole for the top vertical screws that cover the seam where the transom skin meets the splashwell cover. Plus, I noticed it flexing to the point that I'd be nervous about using it again or towing it. I assume it has to be cracked or compromised inside the core. That's a big cap to pull off, but guess I will tackle it to at least get a better idea of what's going on.

 

[oops!]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

yep.......pop them out as fast as you can with no labour.....too bad the economy didn't keep up with the forecasts.....or they would have made money hand over fist !
i love the control aspects of resin to glass ratios and the compression/vac aspects.

lets get at your transom issues......if i remember correctly....the larson had a lifetime warranty on the hull.....are you the first owner?....i dont think its transferable.

can you take some pics of the inside of the boat. ? possibly vids of the transom flexing from the inside and the outside?.....there might just be a cheap suggestion here for you.
it just sounds like the transom core didnt go far enough along the hull skin to do an outboard justice.

the inboards just need the anti crush of the transom to make the system work...out boards are different......the transom is the transference area of the stress of drag vs thrust and weight.

 

[CWKboat]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

yep.......pop them out as fast as you can with no labour.....too bad the economy didn't keep up with the forecasts.....or they would have made money hand over fist !
i love the control aspects of resin to glass ratios and the compression/vac aspects.

lets get at your transom issues......if i remember correctly....the larson had a lifetime warranty on the hull.....are you the first owner?....i dont think its transferable.

can you take some pics of the inside of the boat. ? possibly vids of the transom flexing from the inside and the outside?.....there might just be a cheap suggestion here for you.
it just sounds like the transom core didnt go far enough along the hull skin to do an outboard justice.

the inboards just need the anti crush of the transom to make the system work...out boards are different......the transom is the transference area of the stress of drag vs thrust and weight.

Oops,

It had a "Limited Lifetime warranty" per the sticker on the side windshield at least. I got the boat cheap because it was without a motor and had spent it's life as a rental on Lake George in upstate NY. Once I mounted the Black Max V-6, I noticed a little flex, but the last trip out produced the crack on top of the cap and increased flexing/pulling back the angle iron. I had also braced it with when I mounted it to spread the stress out over a greater area. Prior to mounting the motor, there were noticeable crazing or spider cracks all around the motor mounting area, so it must have flexed a lot before. I know that I would have no warranty claim as it was a rental and I'm the second owner.

I won't have access to video until this weekend, but will try and get one posted of the flex. Stay tuned and check back maybe around this Sunday, or I may PM you once I update the thread. Thanks.

 

[CWKboat]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

Here are a couple of threads that give some amplification to the problems with the Larson OB models which were discontinued. This poor guy had his boat "repaired" by Larson, and the problem quickly reappeared seemingly worse than before. I still plan to pull my cap off and inspect and try and post some pictures or videos within the next week, but it doesn't bode well that Larson apparently could not figure out how to fix the problem. Wow.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=243756&highlight=larson+hull

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=257411

 

[CWKboat]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

I finally got the transom cap off, and was able to get some pictures. The core is some type of foam block material that is very light. There were some cracks across the top of it where the outboard mounts, so I started chipping it out with the idea of replacing the core with Nida Bond. As you can see, the foam is not bonded to the inner and outer skins:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69637194@N06/6329741901/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69637194@N06/6329743123/in/photostream

Here is a view of the transom from the front of the boat. As you can see, the transom does not extend all the way across, but stops short of each side.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69637194@N06/6329744409/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69637194@N06/6330496542/in/photostream

I also noticed that the floor area that runs into the transom is not tabbed in, but rather had some green sealant that failed. Therefore, even if the transom was stiff, it would still flex because there is no rigidity in the connection between the stringers/floor and the inner transom skin. The stringers are not tabbed to the transom. The pictures show where significant separation has occured, and this seems for sure like it will need to be remedied before a new transom is poured in?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69637194@N06/6329749751/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69637194@N06/6329747601/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69637194@N06/6329748603/in/photostream

It almost seems like Larson took an inboard hull with the stringer design, and just put an outboard transom on the back? See this photo: This is where the ski pole mounts with the carpeted board going across, but also looks a lot like where an inboard motor should go?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69637194@N06/6330502048/in/photostream

On the initial bright side, it seems that the foam will not be that hard to chip out and repour with a stronger composite. But, it also seems that I need to come up with a good solution to tabbing the skins to the floor or sides in a way that will eliminate or greatly reduce the flexing when the Nida Bond is poured in?

The stringers as constructed are not connected to the transom, and were only adhered by the green sealant that in this case failed.

Thoughts or suggestions?

 

[oops!]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

hmmm......i see several de laminations. not sure if i am liking the process on the outboards.

ok...lets get you fixed up.

first off....is the weight rating on the black max in spec for the hull?

it is obvious to me that you like the composite route and would be opposed to a wood transom.
with the thickness of the laminate, you have an exellent candidate for seacast.
you could also investigate several composite materials used for a transom.....ill dig up some links for you.

you will need to re inforce the tabbing from the side of the hull to the transom skin. as well as add some knees in the bilge.

can you please post some overall pics of the area....

depending on what route you go....seacast or other.....will depend on the amount of work you have to do....if you are not going seacast, you will need to remove the inside skin layer.....seacast is the only product that will bond to both inside areas. if you drop a chunk of composite in between the inner and outer layer, you wont get a bond at all.

im going to look at your pics some more, and dig up some links to composite transom materials for you....

but you have choices at this point.

 

[CWKboat]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

hmmm......i see several de laminations. not sure if i am liking the process on the outboards.

ok...lets get you fixed up.

first off....is the weight rating on the black max in spec for the hull?

it is obvious to me that you like the composite route and would be opposed to a wood transom.
with the thickness of the laminate, you have an exellent candidate for seacast.
you could also investigate several composite materials used for a transom.....ill dig up some links for you.

you will need to re inforce the tabbing from the side of the hull to the transom skin. as well as add some knees in the bilge.

can you please post some overall pics of the area....

depending on what route you go....seacast or other.....will depend on the amount of work you have to do....if you are not going seacast, you will need to remove the inside skin layer.....seacast is the only product that will bond to both inside areas. if you drop a chunk of composite in between the inner and outer layer, you wont get a bond at all.

im going to look at your pics some more, and dig up some links to composite transom materials for you....

but you have choices at this point.

Thanks for the reply! I will need to check on the weight of the BlackMax, I honestly didn't think about that with hull being so new and with the hyped VEC hulls, I just assumed it would be solid. The packages generally originally came with E-tecs I think, but I bought mine used without the motor. In any event, since I don't have any other motors laying around, guess I better make it strong enough if it originally wasn't LOL!

So, Nida Bond would not bond to the skins in other words? It's cheaper than seacast, but other than that I'm not opposed to using it if it's my best option. If it were you, would you consider going the wood option? Keep in mind I'm pretty much a fiberglass novice.

You mentioned "knees in the bilge," what does that entail?

Thanks so much for the help and suggestions, I look forward to any links or advice that you dig up.

Re: the pics, I can get some more this weekend. If you click on my photostream at flickr, there should be a few more that I did not post on iboats if that may help at all in the mean time.

Regards,

Joey

 

[CWKboat]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69637194@N06/6329966333/

Here's another picture of the general area from the front. The delamination runs the entire length of of the "V" on the bottom of the transom/stringers. It just had that green sealant in between the stringer and area that butted up against the transom.

 

[oops!]

Re: Question re: repairing composite/VEC hulls?

So, Nida Bond would not bond to the skins in other words? It's cheaper than seacast, but other than that I'm not opposed to using it if it's my best option. If it were you, would you consider going the wood option? Keep in mind I'm pretty much a fiberglass novice.

nida bond....secast...any pourable material will be ok...

the bonding issue woud be if you tried to slip a rigid board type material between the gap.....that would make a proper bond to the glass almost impossible.

You mentioned "knees in the bilge," what does that entail?

this is a good shot of the knees during construction.....look at the stringers at the transom

its kinda like an "L" brace between the stringers and transom....or hull bottom and transom......this gives you more stability when a big weight is hanging off the transom top