prep for awlgrip question

[bill11]

I have read alot of awlgrip threads but remain uncertain about a few things. 1) does a aluminum boat have to be treated with alumiprep and alodine before the awlgrip primer? ( it would appear the answer is no but why not?) Is there something special in the primer that makes only a good sanding on aluminum sufficent? 2) the awlgrip website suggests very course profiling like 36 grit.That seems to be a bit aggressive and would require high build primer to fill the scratches. If anyone has experience with the product could you simplify the process and sort out myth from fact? thanks--- bill11

 

[BWT]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

Bare alum NEEDS to be prepped / treated BEFORE the 545 can be applied. As far as prepping the alum, 80 or 120 grit works very well; 36 is too coarse IMO. there are a few way of treating the alum; the products you mentioned are tried and true. Search the forum for other opinions. There is a working window for the treatment and getting the 545 on, but once the primer is on you can work at your own pace.

Here's the steps I follow: sand, clean and treat the alum. Then prime, sand, fare & fill any pin holes, sand and prime again (545). Final sand, clean/wipe down and topcoat.

If you have alot of irregularity in the surface, use awlquick (high build primer) to level the surface then go over with 545 before top coating.

Hope this helps!

~BWT

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

I have read alot of awlgrip threads but remain uncertain about a few things. 1) does a aluminum boat have to be treated with alumiprep and alodine before the awlgrip primer? ( it would appear the answer is no but why not?) Is there something special in the primer that makes only a good sanding on aluminum sufficent? 2) the awlgrip website suggests very course profiling like 36 grit.That seems to be a bit aggressive and would require high build primer to fill the scratches. If anyone has experience with the product could you simplify the process and sort out myth from fact? thanks--- bill11

Hello Bill and welcome to Iboats ..

Could you please provide a link from Awlgrip or US Paints that suggest 36 grit profile .. I talk to them all the time and It might have been a typo in there procedure how to thing ( I looked and could not find ).

Yes the Alum ( from AwlGrip ) should be Alumipreped and alodined .. then a primer coat of 545 or Highbuild ( Highbuild suggests that you prep and apply 545 over it before application ).

Saltys should be Alumiprep,alodine then ZC .. then 545 epoxy primer .. prepped and then AG'd. ( thats old school handbook AG application that Never Fails ).

Are you spraying or rolling .. are you using Awcraft2k or the LP AG ?

For your original question .. If your applying AWL Grip .. and you want there warranty .. follow the book and document it. They do have very good customer service .. you can call them up anytime and ask Any questions Before the application.

YD.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

Bare alum NEEDS to be prepped / treated BEFORE the 545 can be applied. As far as prepping the alum, 80 or 120 grit works very well; 36 is too coarse IMO.

Here's the steps I follow: sand, clean and treat the alum. Then prime, sand, fare & fill any pin holes, sand and prime again (545). Final sand, clean/wipe down and topcoat.

If you have alot of irregularity in the surface, use awlquick (high build primer) to level the surface then go over with 545 before top coating.

Hope this helps!

~BWT

BWT and I typing and posted at almost the same time LOL ..

80g and 120g on Alum is still too harsh for me for Alum ..

220g will give you a quicker profile to apply the Alumiprep and Alodine faster then the courser grits IMO .. and works fine.

AwlQuick ( as far as the rep told me ) can be Top coated with 2000 or LP AG without applying 545 ( I have yet to try this and cannot conferm at this point ).

I still think that < then 120 is too aggressive for your chem coats and primer coats. .. Massive scratches you will have to sand out removing almost 70% of the primer coat ( 545 ).

YD.

 

[bill11]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

thanks for the help. i went back and read the awlgrip prep page and i stand corrected on the 36 grit profile. they recomend 120/180 ( im sure 220 would work as well) I would only spray -- no rollers. As far as the top coat goes i have heard more often then not that the regular awlgrip is best . (as opposed to the newer variations) I plan for now to leave below the water line bare aluminum. would anyone advise scuffing the last coat of 545 with 350 grit before top coat? --- bill11

 

[BWT]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

BWT and I typing and posted at almost the same time LOL ..
AwlQuick ( as far as the rep told me ) can be Top coated with 2000 or LP AG without applying 545 ( I have yet to try this and cannot conferm at this point ).

YD.

I believe their literature says the same, however I've found that the 545 is a little less porous (which can print through to the topcoat). I guess more than anything it's a personal preference. I've been burned once by topcoating the high build, and so far (knock on wood) have not when I sealed this primer with 545. Maybe I was just having a bad day (make that a REALLY bad day) when I topped the awlquick, but I vowed never to do it again..

As far as awlgrip VS awlcraft2000, like most things in life there are trade-offs. Regular AG is a little harder finish and is claimed to have a little better chemical resistance. The big down side is that it is not buffable (yes, people have buffed it and it looks nice.. for a little while at least. Buffing that spot will become an annual ordeal). It may not seem like much of an issue until there is a little dock rash to repair. With regular AG, if the person behind the gun is really good and knows that they are doing the repair can be blended in fairly well if there are a couple of break lines. Awlcraft2000 can be touched up to the point where you would never know that anything happened.

I guess in my mind blemishes are going to be un-avoidable if you use your boat. The repair factor with the 2000 pretty much seals the deal for me. I've painted masts (and they get slapped up when tacking) with both 2000 and regular AG; as far as toughness can't say that I've seen much of a difference. Only thing I have seen is that the ones painted with 2000 (after repairs) still look like new

 

[BWT]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

would anyone advise scuffing the last coat of 545 with 350 grit before top coat? --- bill11

Have to do it for adhesion; I would even look at using 600 for a super fine finish (especially for dark colors). For what it's worth, for prepping the bare alum, I've always used an awlgrip product called Maxcor rather than the alumiprep/alodine. I didn't want to deal with the Haz disposal and the maxcor has always treated me right. After sanding the metal with 120 I scrubbed the bare alum with TSP (tri-sodium phosphate) rinsed very well and dried with compressed air (rather than getting lint from a rag snagged on the metal). Then sprayed the maxcore, 545, fared the surface, 545 again and topcoated after a final sand of 600. The alumiprep/alodine has alot more history under it's belt, but I always had great results with the maxcor. Dont want to add any more confusion to the process, but there's always more than one way to get something done.

Hope this helps!

~BWT

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

I would only spray -- no rollers. As far as the top coat goes i have heard more often then not that the regular awlgrip is best . (as opposed to the newer variations) I plan for now to leave below the water line bare aluminum. would anyone advise scuffing the last coat of 545 with 350 grit before top coat? --- bill11

Yup.. the "regular" LP awlgrip is the best. It IS tougher then 2k. I spray AG 2k for my big projects simply because of its repairability on such a large scale .. I do all my Alum applications in the regular AG though.

Yes the LP AG is a bit more difficult to repair.. but is doable. ( clear hint clear over repair spots can help ).

Prep your 545 with 400 grit before you topcoat with AG. Prep your alum the way you see fit ( I highly recommend you contact a US paint rep for tips ).

As far as the Awlfair .. Your not spraying on Gel .. so stick with the 545 epoxy primer for your application.

YD.

 

[bill11]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

great advise. do you totally trust the awlgrip maxcor to adhere as well as the alodine method? I'm sure the chemists at awlgrip know what they are doing. I will call them and question them about it before making a decision. bill11

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

Hmm.. Max Cor primer no longer produced ..... http://www.awlgrip.com/products/search/pages/Max_Cor_Primer.aspx


"Max Cor Primer

Please Note: We no longer have stock of this product and it is no longer produced."


Hmm.. now they have Maxcor " CF " .. http://www.awlgrip.com/Product Datasheets/4100+A+eng+A4.pdf

I would still stick to the alumiprep/alodine then 545 ( or ZC then 545 ) for best results. Just me and I have Never had any problems with this system ( and its soo easy to apply I cant see why you would want to spray and recoat/reprep anything for alum ) .

Good luck and any other questions please just ask ( I will if needed contact my US paint rep asking about these alum questions with there primers ) .

YD.

 

[bill11]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

ok i'll go old school so that i have no worries. thanks again !

 

[BWT]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

Interesting... It seems they market the new recipe Maxcor same as the old, however the prep is quite different. With the new stuff looks like there are extra steps that need to be taken which kinda - sorta defeats some of it's allure. That's too bad, I really liked the old stuff; it was really easy to work with. So, I can't comment on how well this new stuff works; never used it. When in doubt stick with something that is tried and true. A/A

 

[Ted in Technical]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

Actually that is not correct, BWT. MaxCor CF is specifically formulated and marketed for use in fairing systems, to which the majority volume is sold. It also has an extended recoat time that the old stuff did not have. See exerpt from the [the original MaxCor R4001/R3203] TDS below:

Plan work schedules to allow recoat/overcoating with in the four-sixteen hour window. If more than sixteen hours elapse before overcoating can occur, smooth surfaces can be abraded with a SCOTCHBRITE pad prior to recoat/overcoating. After 24 hours sand with 280-320 Grit sand paper. However, it is essential that the correct personal protective equipment is worn. Ground or sandblasted surfaces must be abraded with a grit appropriate to the surface profile before re-coating or overcoating. Due to its relatively low film thickness any significant abrading of the surface creates the need to reapply the Max Cor to have proper anti-corrosive performance.

For thin film applications Wash Primer CF should be used. It is not as film thickness sensitive as ZnCrO4, but like it can be directly overcoated with topcoat after 1-2 hours. Unlike ZnCrO4 there is no 24 hour limit, you have up to 6 months to decide what you're going to do next, and even then, just blow the settled dust, ScotchBrite it, and get on with things.

About surface prep...For Wash Primer CF, 180-220 is sufficient for direct to topcoat applications.

 

[bill11]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

what benifit does the product have over the traditional alodine process?

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

what benifit does the product have over the traditional alodine process?

MaxCor CF is Above the waterline ONLY .. so I would say no bens here.

If you alumiprep and alodine then 545 primer your basically doing a pro job.

Yes you can do other ways that other members recommend but I have no experience in those systems.

I have found NO primers that skip sand for topcoating with Paint that will give you the results that a typical DIY'er will achieve with the finish you might expect.

YD.

 

[BWT]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

Plan work schedules to allow recoat/overcoating with in the four-sixteen hour window. If more than sixteen hours elapse before overcoating can occur, smooth surfaces can be abraded with a SCOTCHBRITE pad prior to recoat/overcoating. After 24 hours sand with 280-320 Grit sand paper. However, it is essential that the correct personal protective equipment is worn. Ground or sandblasted surfaces must be abraded with a grit appropriate to the surface profile before re-coating or overcoating. Due to its relatively low film thickness any significant abrading of the surface creates the need to reapply the Max Cor to have proper anti-corrosive performance.

For thin film applications Wash Primer CF should be used. It is not as film thickness sensitive as ZnCrO4, but like it can be directly overcoated with topcoat after 1-2 hours. Unlike ZnCrO4 there is no 24 hour limit, you have up to 6 months to decide what you're going to do next, and even then, just blow the settled dust, ScotchBrite it, and get on with things.

About surface prep...For Wash Primer CF, 180-220 is sufficient for direct to topcoat applications.

That's interesting, I'll have to take another look at the app guide. When I skimmed it the other night I thought I had read that the work surface had to be either blasted or ground with 36 grit, maxcor then use a high build primer to get a smooth profile. At that time then final fairing, 545 and topcoat. The heavy grit requirement and need for high build primer is what turned me off (I may be mistaken on what I read; it was a late night and a long day If one could get away with prepping the bare alum with 120, clean/dry and maxcor followed by 545 and topcoat (sanding between each step with appropriate grit) then I would be sold on it again . Personally I never really had much of a problem working with the coat/recoat times of the old stuff, but longer working time is never a bad thing. Thanks for the info..

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

Just to clear things up .. Proper prep for paint ( Sanding for your topcoat ) should be 360-400G for awl's

There is NO Prep/Prime/NO sand/Paint system the will cut the mustard ..You will have to prep the primer with 400ish grit and tack etc .. remask/tent/water down etc. before you Topcoat it for a good job.

No way around that issue... Period ..

YD.

 

[BWT]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

Ditto that. There are multiple ways to approach something and achieve similar results, however there are no short cuts or magic products that will give you that "wow" factor. Excellent results take work, and work = elbow grease One thing that I would like to add regarding prep for awl, I've had better results for final prep with darker colors using 600 grit (rather than the typical 400); dark colors are less forgiving and require a bit more 'attention to detail' than lighter colors. But, generally speaking prep with 400 will give professional results.

 

[bill11]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

great thread --- answered alot of important questions. my boat will be white so i will stop at 400 grit for the primer. How many top coats would you recomend and do you need to scuff the top coat before applying another coat?

 

[BWT]

Re: prep for awlgrip question

typically 2-3 coats about an hour or so between coats. If you're using awlgrip (not the 2000) then I would do the initial 2 and see how it looks. If there are any sags or runs let it set up, block the blemishes and spray a smooth final coat (of course following all prep procedures). If things look good after the first 2 coats, shoot the 3rd and be done. The first coat is a "tack coat" and will be pretty light; essentially a mist coat over the entire area. After that tacks, then the 2nd coat can be sprayed heavier as it will have something to stick to. I would do some test sprays if you've never done this. This paint is very thin and until you know what to look for in coverage it's easy to get runs/sags. Also, make sure to use the appropriate thinner. Good luck! Gotta get back to work