Deck encapsulation and tabbing question

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jim_s

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I've removed the old, soggy floor and bulkheads from my 2001 Bayliner Capri 160 (thankfully, the stringers were well-wrapped and dry inside!!). I'm preparing to replace the floor next, and will be using 1/2" marine ply, which I plan to give a coat or two of epoxy to penetrate the wood, then 'wet' encapsulated in a layer of 6oz cloth (ie, laminate the cloth while the penetration coat is tacky). Most of what I've read seems to talk about tabbing to bare wood, then glassing the deck surface after tabbing. I will obviously need to at least encapsulate the bottom of the deck before putting it down, as it will then be inaccessible. My question is, is it Ok to fully encapsulate the top, bottom and edges of the deck, then tab it into place, or should I do the bottom (and presumably at least the edges), peanut-butter the deck to the stringers and bulkheads, tab to the un-coated top, and then encapsulate/glass the top? (and if so, I presume that I should run the cloth over the layers of biax tape used to tab the deck to the hull?)

It seems like it would be a simpler operation to fully encapsulate the deck (top, bottom, edges), then lay that down and tab it, but that doesn't appear to be the general process that I see people talking about, so I'm wondering if the biax tape perhaps wouldn't adhere as well to the epoxy surface, as it would to the bare ply surface?

Similarly on the bulkheads - my thinking is to fully encapsulate the bulkheads (both sides, and all edges), then fillet/glass them to the stringers and hull. Is this Ok, or should I first peanut-butter/fillet them to the stringers and hull, then glass the fillets, then glass the top edge and sides (the bottom edge and side edges would obviously be buried in in the fillets at that point). Again, it seems that it would be best to fully encapsulate the bulkheads, then fillet/glass them into place, as it seems more likely I'd end up with more fully waterproofed bulkheads by encapsulating fully first, but also again, I don't see this approach talked about, so maybe my intuition is off base.

Thoughts/recommendations?

Thanks!!
 

gm280

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jim_s, I can give you my opinion. Yes I would most certainly encapsulate the flooring all the way around before installing it. I think a lot of folks actually do that for the very same reasons. But before you get too far ahead, did you drill into the stringers to verify they are totally sound. It is easy to look at such things and make a determination they are okay. But unless you actually make a few sample cores, you really don't know that for certain. So I would do that before moving on. But that is just my .02 cents worth.

Secondly, why are you going the epoxy route? Polyester is cheaper and does the same thing. And then if you decide to gel coat, there are no issues with polyester and gel coat. There are problems with gel coat and epoxy though. Just wondering. JMHO
 

tpenfield

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Jim,

Don't use epoxy to pre-treat the wood if you are then going to use polyester resin (which is commonly used) to do the fiberglassing. The epoxy will emit an 'amine blush', which prevents polyester resins from curing and you will have a mell of a hess on your hands..

Use one type of resin throughout to avoid incompatibility issues.
 

jim_s

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Guys - thanks for the info and questions.

gm280 - yes, I (hesitantly, at first... :) drilled down a drill-bit-length (about 3") into the stringers every 12", and got only dry wood chips, so I'm taking that as a blessing from the Bayliner Gods. (a rare one, from what I'm led to understand.) I must remember to fill the holes back in with epoxy!

My thinking on the epoxy came down to several factors:

- I have some level of familiarity with epoxy/glass, as I've used it in the past on radio control plane and boat projects
- I'd read that epoxy is a stronger adhesive, and is more water resistant, than polyester resin (adhesion, given that I'm replacing/adhering the floor and bulkheads; water resistance given that the the old bulkheads had a thin layer of something on them - presumably polyester - and were like mush anyway)
- I figured I'm doing this once, and the difference in price wasn't so astronomically high that it made a go/no-go difference. (That having been said, we'll see how much epoxy I end up going through - I may end up wishing I'd made a different decision in the end - I'm starting out with 2 gallons...)

I will be putting glue-down carpet or stick-on foam back down on the deck (this is a little runabout that we use for tubing/skiing w/ our kids and their friends, so a comfy floor is a very positive thing), so all of this will be covered in the end, thus I'm not presently planning to do any type of gelcoat, peel ply, etc. (If there are alternate thoughts on this - at least the peel ply aspect - I'm very reluctant to bother with gelcoat - I'm all ears. I'm hoping to get a smooth-enough finish just from rolling it, that carpet or foam would stick, but I'd be interested in additional input on this.) The original floor had a very sparse layer of chopper glass bits and what I'm guessing was a thin layer of polyester on it at one time - it had pretty thoroughly degraded - and the carpet was well stuck to that, thus my optimism that I'd get carpet or stick-on foam to stick to a rolled epoxy/glass surface.

tpenfield - it'll be epoxy for the whole project, but I appreciate you pointing that out! I've read that epoxy will adhere like mad to polyester (ie, the hull/stringers), but definitely not the other way around.

Its reassuring to hear that it would be Ok to fully encapsulate things before glassing them to the hull - I'll likely have moved past this boat long before it'd soak up a huge amount of water again, but to go to this level of trouble and expense, it'd be nice to know that its unlikely to soak up water again for a very, very long time. :)

Thanks for the thoughts and advice!
 

JASinIL2006

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Guys - thanks for the info and questions.

gm280 - yes, I (hesitantly, at first... :) drilled down a drill-bit-length (about 3") into the stringers every 12", and got only dry wood chips, so I'm taking that as a blessing from the Bayliner Gods. (a rare one, from what I'm led to understand.) I must remember to fill the holes back in with epoxy!

Ideally, you'd want to drill test the into the sides of the stringers about 3/4" from the hull. Your stringers can look OK on top and be rotten on the bottom - where water pooling and intrusion is most likely.
 

jim_s

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Ugh, more holes in the stringers, eh? (At what point do the test holes start degrading the stringer strength? :) Is every 12" still a good distance? (I guess I'll stagger the side ones between the top ones, so as not to have any heavily localized areas of weakness from the proximity of top and side holes.)

On the subject of holes in the stringers... The little compartments that were formed between the stringers and the outer edge of the hull were sitting full of waterlogged expanding foam (as was pretty much all of the expanding foam under the deck - I'm replacing it w/ pink foam board...), but there was no chance at all for these areas to drain, as they are enclosed compartments (at least, enclosed from the bottom... :). What are the thoughts/recommendations on limber holes for drainage? I've read varying accounts of their value vs risks (ie, allowing water to get to the interior of the stringers), of the means for building them, if one was going to do so (almost all seem to involve PVC pipe, which significantly increases the size of the hole through the stringer, thus leading to worry about weak spots). My current thinking is just to seal them up as well as I can, to prevent water getting in, in the first place, but of course, the best I can do is put down a layer of peanut butter, smoosh the deck down on top of it, and hope that it gets sealed - seems like a fair bit of opportunity for water still managing to get into these little compartments.

One further 'holes in the stringers' question - if I do put peanut butter down on the tops of the stringers and bulkheads, then smoosh the deck down on top of that:
1. Can I rely on the peanut butter, along with the tabbing of the deck to the hull, to adequately adhere the floor to the stringers?
2. As opposed to running stainless screws through the deck and into the stringers (to clamp the floor down for the peanut butter and tabbing to harden), would it be sufficient to put bricks/blocks/etc over the stringer/bulkhead locations, to hold the floor down while things harden? It just seems that screwing through the encapsulated floor, into the previously-well-sealed stringers, is inviting the very problem I'm trying to avoid (ie, allowing water into the interiors of the wood).
3. I have West 403 filler (cotton/fiber) to make fillets - is this sufficient for also making the peanut butter to adhere the floor to the stringers/bulkheads, or should I use something like silica for that purpose? (I arrived at the choice of 403, based on this chart: http://www.westsystem.com/ss/filler-selection-guide)

Thanks Again!
 

ondarvr

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Sounds like you're very interested in doing the best job you can, which is great, just don't over think it, whatever method and attention to detail you use will be 10X better than how it was done originally, so it will last far longer.

​Whether you encapsulate each piece of wood before it's installed or after doesn't make a huge difference, and bonding the floor down and using heavy weights is fine, The downfall of stringers and floors is in the attention to detail in preventing water from finding it's way to them, this is where most entry level boats leave much to be desired. Drill as few holes as possible and seal the ones you do drill the best you can. (and don't worry about drilling holes in the stringers to test them for rot, it will not weaken them, but they do need to be sealed up well again)

​Limber holes work well, but it means you need to drill holes in wood cored stringers, which creates a big problem because if even just one hole is poorly sealed the stringers will get wet and start to rot.
 

jim_s

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Hah, ondarvr - you hit the nail on the head on that one (and put it very kindly... ;-) - given half an opportunity, I will obsess over the smallest details. This is one area, though, that I think its worth obsessing a little bit over, and I'm happy to learn some new skills in the process! :)

I was really kind of dismayed, the further and further I got into deconstructing the floor of the boat. The wood deck surface had little-to-no covering on it (below the carpet), aside from some haphazardly-sprayed chopper glass. The floor was very wet, and once that was pulled up, all of the expanding foam was found to be completely waterlogged - I was digging it out with a small shovel, and it was like shoveling the wet slush after a Spring snow. Of course, due to the foam holding all of that water, all adjacent exposed wood (bulkheads, floor) were well soaked and spongy, and the bulkheads didn't have any drainage holes in them, so each little compartment was like its own little below-decks swimming pool. (Pushing on the foam in these sections would cause it to exude water...) I really was amazed that the stringers were dry, though as you guys have pointed out, I guess I should check near the bottom of them, vs near the top.

This is definitely turning into a very educational project!! (Luckily, its fun working on the boat, and the pay-off is that we get to keep enjoying the boat, once its all back together!!)
 

gm280

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jim_s, yes I wouldn't go crazy but would drill a couple more holes towards the deeper areas of the stringers to verify they are good. And if they are, proceed along. Make sure you do fill in those core holes though. I realize you are familiar with epoxy. But I honestly think polyester would be the better choice because everything would then be compatible. But that is your choice.

As for laying the floor in on top of Peanut Buttered bulkheads and stringer, that is exactly what I did. I used a lot of cinder blocks (concrete block, what ever) and everything I could round up to hold everything down 'til it cured. There are no metal hardware connectors anywhere in my floor, bulkheads or stringers. And it is solid as a rock. No flex, no bounce, nothing. JMHO

Also one other thing, We need pictures of all this, or it just didn't happen. Those are the rules on here. :smile:
 

Woodonglass

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Here's my 2? on your question. I feel that any lamination is always stronger if you apply the second layer as soon after the first has been applied as possible. We call it a Wet on Wet lamination and this allows a better Chemical bonding of the two. With epoxy it's NOT as critical as Poly but...still a good idea IMHO. The edges are the most critical area to ensure 100% encapsulation. for the deck, I'd laminate the bottom and edges outside the boat, install it, and then encapsulate the top and bond to the sides of the hull. Just easier IMHO.
 

JASinIL2006

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Ugh, more holes in the stringers, eh? (At what point do the test holes start degrading the stringer strength? :) Is every 12" still a good distance? (I guess I'll stagger the side ones between the top ones, so as not to have any heavily localized areas of weakness from the proximity of top and side holes.)

As long as the holes are about 1/4", you can drill quite a few before you need to worry. If all is well, just fill with 3M 5200 and you're good to go.
 

jim_s

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Ok, got home late last night, but did pull the drill back out to take some samples from the bottom of the stringers (as close to the bottom as I could get with a drill chuck...). You guys suck. ;-> There were definitely some spongy spots down there - you were right, and there was no visible indicator from the outside, nor from the samples I took from the top. (And I re-checked my drill depth - I'd only gone about 2" down from the top - I thought it was closer to 3". The stringers are about 4" high.

So, cue up the sad music and another gallon of epoxy... :) The fiberglass wrapping around the stringers (especially at the base, and a good bit on the sides) is pretty thick, and I'm hesitant to try to take all of that right down to the hull. Current early-stage thinking is to try chopping off the top of the stringer, chisel/grind/vacuum out the wood, then clean it all up nice, and epoxy new (epoxy-encapsulated) wood into the remaining shell (lots of epoxy, to make sure the old leakage points, wherever they are, are sealed up), and put several layers of glass over it to seal it up and restore it back up to the original height. Does this sound sensible? (Other passing thoughts are to sister in new stringers beside the old ones - probably no less construction work than replacing the old ones, though it'd save me some destruction work; or just glassing the loving heck out of it all to build up enough glass structure that the wood no longer plays a role. Neither of these appeal strongly to me, however. Further thoughts I should be having on such alternatives?)

The stringers are 3/4" thick in the rear and front (the wood part - the glass coating makes it a little bit thicker outside), and are doubled to 1.5" in the mid-section for 3-4'. Based on what I can see through the top layer of resin, it appears to be plywood (I can vaguely make out lines of end grain, running the length...) Looks like they doubled up the 3/4" ply for the mid-section. I guess cue up a sheet of 3/4" marine ply, too...)

I suppose this might give me an opportunity to put some drain holes in for those isolated compartments - if I were to cut a groove across the bottom of the stringer at the appropriate spots, then epoxy-soak the stringers before putting them in (and drill through the existing stringer shells in the same spots as the grooves), would that be a reasonable plan to allow drainage under the stringer for those isolated compartments?(or would I be better off just sealing it all up, and accepting that those compartments will, at some point, start holding water again?)

Thanks Again for everyone's help! I'm honestly to the point now, of asking whether this little tub is worth the trouble - but in reality, I think it is, to me - as I'd be unlikely to go out and spend thousands on another boat (which might well be in the same shape underneath...). A little sweat equity should get us back on the water, and keep us there, at least until the kids graduate HS in a few years...
 

Woodonglass

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Attempting to use the old stringer channels for new one's is not a good option. You'll spend more time and money doing it. Use a sawzall and cut em off flush with the hull. Make new stringers and re-Glass em in. Since this is turning out to be a Full Gut Restoration, I'd recommend using Polyester resin. Less expensive and easier to use. Make sure and core sample the Transom too!!! You'll probably find out it needs attention as well. This link should have some value for you...


Fabricating Decks, Stringers, and Transoms
 

jim_s

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Hah, well, not much in the way of pictures along the way, but I do have this sorta-before (seats, etc removed), and sorta-after (floor pulled up, and most of the slushy foam removed).
 

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Baylinerchuck

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That's a nice looking boat and well worth the attention IMO. There are a lot of restoration heavy hitters giving you advice here, so you should do well with this rebuild. Have you looked at the transom at all yet? I'll. E following along if you need anything.
 

jim_s

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Thanks Baylinerchuck - it really has been a great little first boat for us. Not a lick of problem up until the flexy spot in the floor started becoming noticeable. (Ok, there was the time that a zip tie came loose in the cowling, got ingested by a carb, and stuck in the reed valve, but that was nobody's fault but my own, and was a good excuse to put in composite reed valves while I had it apart... <:) It boogies pretty well with the 90hp 2-stroke - pulls the tube plenty well (4-blade, 19 pitch prop helps there), and reliably pulls my small 140 lb self at 34mph on a slalom ski (I've got a custom RPM-based speed controller on it, so that helps, too...). Its our go-to activity as long as the water temp at the lake is tolerable to the kids. (I've got a dry suit, so ski pretty much year-round :) I'd love to have a 'big boy' boat one day, but its hard to move up, when the little tub is working so well for us! :) (Its size is becoming a little problematic, as the kids and their friends keep growing - we're having to go out in smaller groups now, to keep under the rated weight limit of 650 lbs - and I'm trying to be cognizant of not digging into that capacity in the process of doing this restoration work.)

On the transom... Yeah, the transom... When I mounted some hardware on the transom shortly after I got the boat 3 years back (trim tabs), I had to drill into it, and got clean/dry wood out (it was relatively low on the transom - about 9" up from the bottom of the hull), and I've assumed since that all is well back there. Now that the floor, bulkheads and stringers have been found to be soggy though, I'm beginning to worry about the transom. That having been said, I've got my hands full right now just getting the floor/stringer work done (in addition to wanting to get it on the water, each day that it occupies the garage is another step closer to divorce... ;-), my inclination is to open that potential can of worms later in the season. (If I can wiggle my arms into the bilge area - its really, really tight - I'll probably drill a hole or two in the transom from the inside (it appears to just be a chunk of wood on the inside of the transom, covered by a thick coating of glass - doesn't appear to be a double-wall transom), just to see how things look, and to better gauge what my later summer plans might need to be. (Wife and kids are out of town for almost 2 weeks late in the summer, so that would be the time to do it... :) In the mean time, I just keep trying to look down (at the floor/stringers), and avoid looking toward the back of the boat... :)
 

Woodonglass

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It's a WHOLE lot easier to do the transom now when the deck and stringers are out. IF the transom goes bad next year...You'll be cutting away the new deck and parts of the new stringers just to get the transom out and new one in. I'd Highly recommend you core sample it now and IF you find dry wood then Good For You!!!
If not...I'd replace it now. It'll add 2-3 days of work and about $300 to your costs.
If it has to come out, make sure and let us know so we can guide you to the easiest/fastest method for removal and replacing it.
 

jim_s

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Woodonglass - I hear you - its good advice. (The other advantage being that if I have to end up doing the transom, I suspect I'd have to take the cap off, which would open up the sections of floor under the splash well and the open bow - neither of which I can get to presently, so both of which I cannot replace. (The one plus is, the wood deck is in good shape under those areas, but I feel a little incomplete leaving 2 ft in the rear, and 3 ft in the front, of original deck. (I can get to the stringers in the front - mostly, but not so in the rear.

Am I correct in assuming that I'd have to pull the cap off to do the transom?
 
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