Perspective of Fiberglass Boat design life

[Scott Danforth]

Having been a member on this wonderful forum for a few years, I thought I would share some perspectives

Design Life..... that magic duration of time that your product is designed to survive until being replaced.

Lawn and Garden equipment has a design life of about 7 years for the average consumer. Commercial lawn and garden equipment has a design life of 5 years with a major overhaul and re-power at 2-1/2 years

your average automobile has a design life of 180,000 miles (300,000 km's) or about 15 years with proper maintenance

our boats..... depending on manufacturer, about 10-15 years depending on manufacture (yes some have longer design lives). I am not talking large 40meter and 50 meter yachts which have a design life of 20-25 years between major refurbs or mega yachts with a 75 year design life, I am talking your average 21 foot run-about or 24' cuddy (express cruisers are about 15-20 years)

over 70% of the average new boat owners will resell the boat for a new boat. that number was in the 40% range in the 60's and the 60% range in the 90's the average boat is intended to be maintained on a regular basis and used on average about 50-100 hours per year the need to continue selling new boats will always prevent the market from building a "forever" boat. if such a boat could be built, it would be outside the realm of the average "Joe" and it would push the boating hobby to the uber rich only, and after a few years, the style would be out of date.

at the end of the design life, the mechanical systems will need serious attention, the trim within the vessel will need to be replaced, and all the soft surfaces should be replaced. if the boat has been maintained, the structure may be intact. The wood structure under many boats is slowly being replaced, not for longevity of the boat, however because it quickens up the boat building process. stinger tubs pulled out of a mold, slathered with adhesive from a pneumatic gun to glue the parts together is actually faster than a team of carpenters using machine cut plywood and stapling it in place for the guys to drape and bag resin soaked cloth . However the capitol required to invest into permanent molds pushes the building technique to some of the bigger names, or higher priced names.

Some of you may be thinking....if it doesnt have wood, it will last forever because it wont rot....true to some extent, however the boat still has a finite design life

just because a boat is "wood free" doesn't mean its problem free. adhesives put together in haste can have a curing or bonding issue. the adhesive bond has a minimum gap and a maximum gap to work within. work outside that window and the joint can fail. Adhesive joints can only flex so many times prior to parent material or the adhesive material failing from fatigue. exposure of flotation foam to moisture and freeze/thaw cycles can damage a boat. Back to the design life of the boat in the 10-15 year range. This is because the boat may not have wood to rot, it does have a one-time build hull that will eventually fatigue and fail at its flexure points

Add rough water, impacts to objects such as a beach, a trailer, another boat, or projectiles from a storm and the life of a particular boat is altered

Just getting to the desire of boat owners over the years add things to their boat to personalize them. flag poles, drink holders, rod holders, spare batteries, etc. all are screwed into the boat somewhere. in many instances the fastener will breach the method of encapsulation on wood structured boats or engineered structured boats. the flotation foam is then exposed and starts to deteriorate This also impacts the life of the boat

There is not much information on the web for design life, infact I found this by accident http://www.proglassinc.com/assets/boat.pdf which triggered a chain of thoughts stemming from design life conversations on other equipment at work the other day.

To that end, I thought I would post this here for those people that question why a boat manufacturer 30 years ago used wood or stables to hold the wood together.....and not make it "wood free". or why cant boats last 50+ years with neglect such as leaving the plug in the boat while the boat is exposed to dropping leaves, sun, rodents, etc.

its about the design life of the boat. its about getting a boat out the door at the lowest possible cost to the consumer while making the maximum profit for the manufacturer. This is done by not over-building boats as the manufacturer would be out of business as the demand drops when the market is saturated..... and not under-building boats as the warranty exposure would decimate the company..... however by building boats to a design life, where the boat makes it thru the warranty period, a few years past it to be sold and replaced, or mother nature drops a tree on it and its replaced

we here on iboats tend to be similar to the folks that sink $25,000 into a 1950 pickup truck. A new 2017 pickup truck would be 10,000 times better in ride quality, NVH quality, fuel economy, etc. however not everyone can afford a $55,000 truck and that 1950's truck is just cool

We do it because we enjoy the hobby of boating. we do it because our specific situation in life may preclude us from buying a new boat every 7-10 years. we rebuild motors, replace or rebuild outdrives, replace interiors, restore the hulls and structure. WE ALL complain that the boat should have been built better and built to last forever. the truth of the mater is that if the boat was built better and to last forever, most of us would not be boating, we would be rowing a $15,000 row boat or paddling a $10,000 canoe.

Instead we buy $10k or $20k used boats, we use them for a while, we then sell them and upgrade. or we buy a $5k project boat, completely strip it down to just the hull and build it up from there. We do it for the love of working on the boat, for the boat hobby itself. We do it to complain about things that we know in our heart we should not complain about. We do it because we love fishing or water sports or simply going for a cruise up the river/lake/ocean. Some of us do it because of nostalgia, some of us do it because we can build what we want when we cant buy it.

Happy Boating and remember, nearly all of us own a boat, car, lawnmower, etc. that is past its design life.

 

[garbageguy]

Great post! Well, most of my stuff is beyond it's "design life". (maybe me too(?)

I struggle with it daily, and am trying not to feel I have to fix everything - sometimes ya gotta move on.

We struggle with that at my company too - do we fix that compactor again that has 26,000 hours, or drop the $mill ?

I'm sure I will continue to keep/maintain plenty of things that are beyond their design life (the Admiral should be happy about that - as long as she doesn't hear it that way). But I did recently lease a new car ( I drive quite a bit, so I decided to make this part of my life much easier - the money will just be spent by somebody else on something else anyway). I sure do like just cleaning it, putting fuel in, an driving that thing!

 

[tpenfield]

Interesting concept . . .

All of my boats and some of my cars are past their 'design life'. Some I actually purchased past their design life and had to bring new life back into them

 

[southkogs]

... even my lawn equipment is past it's design life

Almost reads like an iBoats manifesto. Cool read.

 

[GA_Boater]

... even my lawn equipment is past it's design life

Almost reads like an iBoats manifesto. Cool read.

Thousands of posts every year and very few are "I just got a brand new XYZ". Most are "My new to me XYZ".

It's satisfying and thrilling to keep something old going and going by yourself with some iBOATS or Internet help. Anyone can take the newer stuff to a dealer, but you can't say "I fixed it myself"!

As always there are exceptions. I'm probably past my design life, so the experts can take a crack at me.

Nice take on this, Scott. :thumb:

 

[Scott Danforth]

Thanks for the kind words guys.

GA, hoping to make this a sticky or get it into a link for all the newbies that come on board

When I was director of product development for a large L&G manufacturer, we used to give employees test/eval equipment and specifically tell them to do no maintenance. at the 7/8 year mark the oil would have coked so bad the motor would fail. Pneumatic tires from Kenda/Carlisle would fail and crack at the end of the warranty period. we would get letters all the time that someone inherited Granddads 60 year old snowblower or tiller or what not and it was running great. it was on its second motor and the auger had been replaced twice, gearbox was replaced, however it was still running. that is 1-2 rebuilds (effectively resetting a design life clock)

the current lift equipment I work on has a life expectancy of 25 years. there are annual inspections as required by flag state and the certifying bodies. after 5 years, the units are pulled apart, re-painted, new bearings, cylinders repacked, etc. The tender lifts have a 1-2 year warranty mainly because with lack of maintenance, they corrode off the boat within 5-8 years as no-one ever replaces zincs, or they abuse the equipment. Generally at 25 years, the equipment is replaced because the new stuff is lighter or has enhanced features.

when I worked for a telehandler manufacturer, the equipment was a 10 year design life. 5 years with primary market (rentals mostly) then 5 years with general contractors prior to being sold off-shore or to south america. prior to being sold off-shore, the wheels/tires were replaced, the transmission rebuilt, new brakes in the axles, cylinders rebuilt, any damage to the frame repaired and unit repainted. Lift cranes were a little longer.

remember design life is one thing, going past the design life requires refurb or restoration. my current daily driver has 195k on the clock its past its design life and every system in the car needs an overhaul. redid the cylinder head, on the 3rd timing belt, (finishing the HVAC, moving to convertible top next). I generally buy near junk vehicles and throw a low-mileage driveline into it from a wreck as my daily drivers. generally because I am broke as heck and I have made the distinction between transportation and a quality vehicle

My boat went thru a mild bulkhead/stringer/transom repair and a motor refresh in 2012. a drive refresh in 2014 to repaint/reseal and will be getting a repaint/re-gel and repower this year. prior to my owning the boat, the rotating electrics were replaced, the interior vinyl replaced and the outdrive re-sealed. over the past 29 years, the boat has had 5 owners that i know of.

 

[lckstckn2smknbrls]

Lets not forget the B52 bomber.
They first flew in 1952 and are now expected still be flying at 100 years of age.

 

[Woodonglass]

I think my boat will outlive me!!! My "Design Life" gets closer every year!!!!:facepalm:

 

[Baylinerchuck]

Great post Dan, this needs to be a sticky somewhere. I take pride in using equipment that is well beyond end of life. Some vehicles and boats have a certain everlasting appeal that draws us in. I'm a sucker for those!!!

 

[gm280]

Very interesting post/thread. One of my problems is, when I should let go of things and buy new? When I see a new mower at $3,000 to $4,000 dollars, I try my darnedest to fix my old one. But it is at least 18 years old now and seems I have fixed nearly everything on it at least once. But when I crank it up and am mowing, it still does the job. So until I can convince myself to give it up and buy a new one, I keep fixing it. That is one of the curses of being able to fix things to keep them going. Where does that stop? :noidea:

 

[Scott Danforth]

. Where does that stop? :noidea:

when you win the lottery and finances exceed the tools and ability

 

[kcassells]

Cool thread Scott. Thanks for the research.

 

[CrazyFinn]

Just saw this post. Describes me perfectly... my limit when buying a "new" car is $3000. I drive 50,000 km a year, I would lose way too much money in depreciation on new cars... as it is, I generally get another 200,000 km or more, relatively trouble free out of my used $3000 cars. So, roughly 4 years of driving. Generally, I retire them at 400,000 to 450,000 km, usually because of rust. Whatever repairs they do need, I do myself.

My dad has a snowblower we use regularly (he lives in our house). We call it the Frankenblower - it's actually built out of three totally different brands of snowblowers, two of which he got for free. The third he bought new a few years ago - other than the engine it was junk. That engine, and the plastic chute, are now on Frankenblower. The rest was sold as scrap metal. The planned life of snowblowers is quite obviously getting shorter!

Only makes sense that when I buy a boat, I would get a used one for cheap and then fix it up. That's how we do everything in our family.

Not gonna win the lottery any time soon. No money for lottery tickets- need that to buy fibreglass supplies!

 

[Red Herring]

We just bought a flat which is in terrible shape, this on top of this four year long boat escapade which is finally near completion starts forming a pattern. I hear you loud and clear.

I'm also quite sure older stuff is generally built better with quality materials. The fact that there is a lightbulb from 1894 (approx) still in service in some fire station on your side of the pond says a lot (fun stuff to read up on, there's a documentary called " The lightbulb scam" about planned obsolence well worth watching).

 

[Scott Danforth]

Coming back to this as I changed jobs and have additional perspective of design life....... a few miscellaneous ramblings over lunch

A good friend of mine just left the automotive market with a member of the big three.........from dearborn..... the design life for the average automobile has been shortened from the 180,000 mile to 100,000 miles. this is because most people are now primarily leasing vs buying. the increased use of plastics and non-serviceable components reflects the dispose/replace vs maintain/repair philosophy of 20 years ago. vehicles simply are not lasting what they used to

couple that with the ever-increasing use of electronics and the 100k mark is it.

Having a 13 year old daily driver, I can attest to the issues with failing plastic and other bits..... going thru a motor swap to a new motor, I have had to replace every bit of rubber, every CV joint (because the boots failed), the hydraulic brake lines, the hydraulic clutch line (NLA) the Dual Mass Flywheel (NLA thru the vehicle manufacturer) the engine mounts, etc. every bit of harness loom was replaced as the plastic loom all disintegrated. every connector with a clip had the clip break, so I have zip ties holding the connectors together. with a thermostat of 210 degree and a very common 220F operating temp under the hood, the plastic bits age harden quite quickly

enough of that. Back to fiberglass boat design life.....

Marine vinyl - maximum warranty period on the market is 5 years. https://spradlingvinyl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/SIM-Limited-Warranty-102017.pdf

Warranty | Sunbrella

Sunbrella. Limited Warranty. We stand behind our fabrics with a 5-year limited warranty for upholstery, specialty fabrics and decorative shade fabrics, and a 10-year limited warranty for shade and marine fabrics.

www.sunbrella.com

most marine vinyl manufacturers are only 3 years

the upholsterer's generally have a 2-3 year warranty depending on their specific aggreement with the boat builder. with normal care and maintenance, the boat upholstery is designed to last about 7-10 years max. much less if its a Charter / Rental market. the constant washing of the cushions between rentals and you are looking at 2-3 year life on the upholstry

Todays fiberglass tubs/plexus/etc life

Talking to some of the boat builders. the larger 25-50 foot off-shore boats are expected to get a minor overhaul at least once by the original owner prior to being sold. this is primarily soft surfaces, electronics, etc.

Hulls with composite transoms, etc need to be inspected at the minor overhaul. workmanship issues tend to impact service life most of all. These workmanship issue could be a minor void in the plexus that then leads to a joint failure if the boat sees a fair amount of service

Stainless trim...... 316L is the preferred material of choice for the marine market. However starting about 15 years ago, as boat builders want to cut costs, 304 and 302 with passivation and polish is the norm. the additional cost of 316 over 304 is about 20%. start adding up the costs and this could be about $2k per average 26 foot boat. since the final boat price is fixed by the market, that $2k is pushed to the bottom line as the boat will be sold to the second buyer prior to the 304 rusting too badly

 

[racerone]

You are right some boats are built with cheap materials.----Even saw a boat with particle board for stringers.----I cut grass with a 1967 Lawnboy -----I am fixing up a 40 year old boat ---Action Marine 17-----I have removed all the cheap plywood and going with West System and composite products.---I hope the grandson can say 30 years from now ----" Granpa built it , and it will not rot or break "----A time and beer token consuming project.-----But not keeping track of that part of it.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Just came back from a trip with the prototype team patterning two new center console boats.

its amazing that a $1.2M Center console boat is skimping on the vinyl using $8/yard (Capitano white) vs a better grade of vinyl with a better warranty.

on 18 yards of vinyl, they are saving at best $180-$300 on a $7k-$9k interior package. yes, only 2-3%

plastic thru-hulls being uses vs bronze or even at least marelon.

their rational....... new boat will only be owned for 2 years and sold.

 

[southkogs]

^^^ Craftsmanship is a little lost in the commodity world.

 

[KJM]

Just came back from a trip with the prototype team patterning two new center console boats.

its amazing that a $1.2M Center console boat is skimping on the vinyl using $8/yard (Capitano white) vs a better grade of vinyl with a better warranty.

on 18 yards of vinyl, they are saving at best $180-$300 on a $7k-$9k interior package. yes, only 2-3%

plastic thru-hulls being uses vs bronze or even at least marelon.

their rational....... new boat will only be owned for 2 years and sold.

But their brand name and thus reputation will be on there for years.....very short sighted.

 

[zool]

Premium vinyls in popular colors seem to be scarce, Sailrite has their Ever-soft marine vinyls on what seems like forever backorder, in fact, they wont even allow backorder. They suggest ordering another brand. The cheaper stuff seems to be readily available. I had to go to another brand, and used another supplier to get the small amount i needed in the closest color to Ever-soft Teak I could find.