1985 Force 85 HP No Spark w/ new cd module

[jdskinner08]

1985 85hp Force 856F5A

New to Outboard engines, but mechanically inclined and fairly good at troubleshooting but I'm stuck.

Long story short, previous owner had red wires going to the negative terminals and blacks going to the positive terminals on the battery. I didn't realize this when I removed it so when I replaced it I assumed that the red meant hot... Assuming is never the answer.

Smoke started pouring out and after a quick continuity check, i had realized the mistake. Checked for the point of smoke and the CD module was fried. So I new that needed to be replaced.

Cd module came in yesterday and I installed it based on this diagram.

85_90_thru91A_CD.jpg


now I am not getting Spark to any cylinders. An I was prior to the mishap. I know I could have screwed up some diodes in the rectifier by reversing polarity, but Im not sure how to check that. I dont want to just buy every electrical component for the engine and put it on. I need to know how to test them one by one.

So i guess my question is. If anyone has any ideas as to why I am not getting spark. I am stumped and I would appreciate any reliable information.

Thanks

[jdskinner08]

also I just remembered the breaker switch to the left rear of the outboard is continuously tripping. however it looks like that runs to the solenoid. if that were the case i wouldn't be able to turn it over. correct? or would it just not be putting power to the coils (hence no fire?)

just trying to include everything I know about it.

[pnwboat]

This ignition system is self energizing. 12 volt battery voltage is not required for spark. Once the flywheel starts to spin fast enough, the magnets under the flywheel will generate the voltage in the stator to feed to the CD modules to generate spark to the coils. The tripped breaker wouldn't have anything to do with lack of spark. Make sure the White wire from the CD modules is not "grounded". This is the engine Kill circuit. When you turn the key OFF, it grounds the white wire killing the ignition signal to the CD modules. Make sure the Kill switch lanyard is connected to the kill switch. When you pull the lanyard off, it also grounds the white wire preventing spark. Also be aware that a bad CD module can prevent a good one from working. Try disconnecting the white wire from the remaining original CD module and see if you see spark at the coils that are connected to the replacement CD module.

[jdskinner08]

Thanks for the response. I will try this as soon as i get a minute.
Shoud I go ahead and purchase a rectifier? or is there an easy way to test that. I put my meter to it and was only reading millivolts.

I will keep you updated as soon as I know something.

[datastream]

Ok, So I'm picking up where JD left off. I just purchased from from him.

However, the issues remain. The breaker trips immediately after reset, unless i mess with the red lead coming from the rectifier and going to the breaker in which case the trip time changes by a few seconds.

I can't find anything on the forums where someone has swapped the battery leads accidentally. It cant be THAT uncommon especially since both pos and neg leads are BLACK. ('preciate that there Force)

At any rate thats when all this began. I'll check the trigger and stator and all that, but could really use some help validating the rectifier. A tripping breaker has to keep something from working.

Will update shortly.

Thanks

[adam85bayliner]

Ok, So I'm picking up where JD left off. I just purchased from from him.

However, the issues remain. The breaker trips immediately after reset, unless i mess with the red lead coming from the rectifier and going to the breaker in which case the trip time changes by a few seconds.

I can't find anything on the forums where someone has swapped the battery leads accidentally. It cant be THAT uncommon especially since both pos and neg leads are BLACK. ('preciate that there Force)

At any rate thats when all this began. I'll check the trigger and stator and all that, but could really use some help validating the rectifier. A tripping breaker has to keep something from working.

Will update shortly.

Thanks

I also have a 1985 force (85hp) and did the same just this past weekend. I hooked up the terminals backwards and now i have no spark. I need some advice? Did you figure out what was wrong on yours? Are there any test that i can perform to figure out what might have blown? Are there fuses on yours? I can't find any on mine. The starter will turn over, the radio, depth finder lights all work, just no spark. Help Please.

[datastream]

Yeah, if theres no spark its because the kill circuit is now shorted. It is shorted because the rectifier is shorted on one side.

This bad rectifier also causes the trim/tilt circuit breaker to trip immediately after connecting the battery. (the right way, that is: ))

So, on the vertical terminal block on the starter side of the motor you will look for the white wire terminal. There should be 1 wire on the left side, and two wires on the right side. The two on the right come from your cdi packs - one each. Disconnect those two on the right side and keep them away from each other and other metal surfaces.

Now try to start your engine...it should show signs of life. But now that the kill circuit is disconnected, the key will not stop the motor. I push in the key to activate the choke. That should kill it. Leave these two wires disconnected for now.

If your circuit breaker is tripping, disconnect the battery first. Then disconnect the black wire from the rectifer. reset the breaker and reconnect the battery. If the breaker does not trip, the rectifier is shorted. Radio Shack - 25amp, 50volt, full wave bridge rectifier - ~$4. It will not thave the screw terminals like the old one, so I had to clip the ends and use slide connectors and squeeze them a bit to get them to stay. Any way to secure them will work.

Now, with the rectifier replaced, you can do what I have yet had time to do...see if it fixes the kill circuit. Reconnect the two white wires and try to start the engine. I'm hoping the engine will fire, but again, I havent had time to check that part.

Reply back with your findings.

Thanks,

[adam85bayliner]

First of all good luck with your boat. I hope this fixed it.

I tested mine tonight, I tried disconnecting the two white wires from the terminal bar and still had no spark. I also disconnected the black wire from the rectifier but still had no spark. However when disconnected the black wire from the rectifier i forgot the reset the breaker so maybe that prevented it from working. I will have to retry again tomorrow.

Thanks for helping.

[datastream]

I seem to be going backwards on mine...

How are you testing for spark? With a device or trying to crank the engine?

Removing the black wire from the rectifier was to test if the rectifier was bad. If the breaker does not trip after connecting the battery, with the black wire disconnected, the rectifier is bad. The breaker is for your tilt/trim circuit. Nothing else.

I also had to replace one of the CDI packs, but it showed obvious signs of damage. And after replacement of the CDI, the engine would not run until the kill circuit was 'killed'...even before I replaced the rectifier.

So...If you're testing for spark with a device and there is clearly no spark, with kill circuit out of the mix, you're looking at trigger and stator issues - would be my guess - and beyond my paygrade for the time being.

I found alot of info on tests to try in the forums. use the search function with different terms and you'll get hits. I promise.

Good luck. : )

[adam85bayliner]

I seem to be going backwards on mine...

How are you testing for spark? With a device or trying to crank the engine?

Removing the black wire from the rectifier was to test if the rectifier was bad. If the breaker does not trip after connecting the battery, with the black wire disconnected, the rectifier is bad. The breaker is for your tilt/trim circuit. Nothing else.

I also had to replace one of the CDI packs, but it showed obvious signs of damage. And after replacement of the CDI, the engine would not run until the kill circuit was 'killed'...even before I replaced the rectifier.

So...If you're testing for spark with a device and there is clearly no spark, with kill circuit out of the mix, you're looking at trigger and stator issues - would be my guess - and beyond my paygrade for the time being.

I found alot of info on tests to try in the forums. use the search function with different terms and you'll get hits. I promise.

Good luck. : )

I am testing for spark by turning over the motor and holding the plug to the block of the motor. I bought a new rectifier this morning at Radio Shack so if i get time i will install it tonight after work.

I don't have electric trim/tilt but i still have a breaker, would this make sense?

[shytownborn]

also check your stator,it supplies the power to the mods, no power no spark

[adam85bayliner]

also check your stator,it supplies the power to the mods, no power no spark

Is there a good way to check the Stator?

[Jiggz]

Is there a good way to check the Stator?

Usually the only check done on stator windings is for continuity and ground checks. However, if you have a maintenance manual it can also tell you to check for resistance which specific resistance value. But generally it's all about continuity and ground checks. I posted a wiring diagram on Adam85 thread you might want to check.

[adam85bayliner]

Usually the only check done on stator windings is for continuity and ground checks. However, if you have a maintenance manual it can also tell you to check for resistance which specific resistance value. But generally it's all about continuity and ground checks. I posted a wiring diagram on Adam85 thread you might want to check.

I have the newer style stator i believe form CDI electronics. It has just 1 blue wire and 1 yellow wire coming from it. Do i test these two wires for continuity? Should i have the battery disconnected a the time?

[adam85bayliner]

Oh I forgot to mention i do have a CDI electronics book coming but it wont be here for 10 days. Also how would i check for ground? just visually?

[Jiggz]

I have the newer style stator i believe form CDI electronics. It has just 1 blue wire and 1 yellow wire coming from it. Do i test these two wires for continuity? Should i have the battery disconnected a the time?

Not familiar with the new stator but the old stator has two sets of blue and yellow wires feeding the two CD modules. It could be that the new stator now parallels the two cd modules instead of individually connected with the stator. To check for continuity means to use a multimeter with the ohmmeter setting and connecting each probe to each of the wires. A low resistance reading will tell you there is continuity. To check for ground means to place one probe to ground (a black wire from the rectifier should be a good ground or any metal part of the engine block and the other probe to one of the either blue or yellow wires and you should read infinity or very high resistance in megaohms value to indicate the stator is not grounded. And yes, you need to disconnect the power before reading and also isolating at least one of the wires which means disconnecting it from the terminal board.

[adam85bayliner]

Not familiar with the new stator but the old stator has two sets of blue and yellow wires feeding the two CD modules. It could be that the new stator now parallels the two cd modules instead of individually connected with the stator. To check for continuity means to use a multimeter with the ohmmeter setting and connecting each probe to each of the wires. A low resistance reading will tell you there is continuity. To check for ground means to place one probe to ground (a black wire from the rectifier should be a good ground or any metal part of the engine block and the other probe to one of the either blue or yellow wires and you should read infinity or very high resistance in megaohms value to indicate the stator is not grounded. And yes, you need to disconnect the power before reading and also isolating at least one of the wires which means disconnecting it from the terminal board.

Sorry i got confused there for a min. I took another look at it last night and it has 2 blue wires and 2 yellow wires, but the 2 blue wires are connected together.

I tested the two sets of wires Blue connecting to yellow and there is no continuity or resistance. I think this means that my Stator is bad?

I also checked for ground and there was resistance.

[shytownborn]

with no readings across the yell, blues and readings to ground your stator appears to be bad

[Jiggz]

Before concluding with a bad stator, check for output voltage. You will to have a multimeter set to read AC voltage and then connect one probe to the blue wire and then another probe to the yellow wire. If the blue wires are connected together as you mentioned, just place one of the meter's probe to these two blue wires and the other probe to the yellow wire. Disconnect the rectifier for now until you get sparks or engine runs. Make sure everything else is connected and stay clear of moving parts for the engine might actually fire and run. Now have a partner crank the engine for about 5 secs and while you hold on the probes to the wires. Watch the multimeter and you should at least read between 180~200 VAC at cranking speed. If not the stator definitely needs to be replaced.

[adam85bayliner]

You will to have a multimeter set to read AC voltage and then connect one probe to the blue wire and then another probe to the yellow wire. If the blue wires are connected together as you mentioned, just place one of the meter's probe to these two blue wires and the other probe to the yellow wire. Disconnect the rectifier for now until you get sparks or engine runs. Make sure everything else is connected and stay clear of moving parts for the engine might actually fire and run. Now have a partner crank the engine for about 5 secs and while you hold on the probes to the wires. Watch the multimeter and you should at least read between 180~200 VAC at cranking speed. If not the stator definitely needs to be replaced.

So when i test for voltage do i need a DVA adaptor or can i do it with my normal multimeter? Also when i disconnect the rectifier, should i disconnect all the wires or just the black ground wire?

Thanks for you help.

[shytownborn]

jiggz is right on the money, ive always checked mine with an ordinary volt - ohm meter, with these stators theres three sections, two of them give power to the modules and the other to charge the battery, the yell, blues for the mods and the other two wires dont really remember the colors are for the rectifier that charges the battery

[Jiggz]

For the rectifier just disconnect the yellow/purple wires coming from the stator (tape them off with electrical tape and make sure they do not touch anything). The red and black can stay or if you want disconnect the red also but make sure you tape the lead and not touch the ground or the engine block. A regular voltmeter should suffice although a digital type that holds highest volt reading will be better. Post your test results and we will pick it up from there.

[adam85bayliner]

So I tested the Stator for both resistance and Volts, and i got none. No resistance and no volts. So i think my stator is bad. Can anything else cause the stator to not get power. The motor is during over. Is there anything anything before the stator?

[Jiggz]

With an open ckt (no resistance) and no voltage output, it's more likely the stator is already bad. But there is only one way to find out and that is to remove the flywheel and check make to sure the magnets are still in there and then do a visual check of the stator. A burn mark or sign of overheating on the stator is a sure sign it is no good.

[mitzysman]

Hi Jiggz, i was testing my rectifier today and didn't realize the red was hot even with the key off - and I arced red lead to the center screw - I was taking the screw that mounts the rectifier. It triggered the breaker - did I hose the rectifier or is that not a big deal. I should have found this post first about only removing the purple wires. I really wish the manual i was reading said that was live.